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Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

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Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#661

Post by tnecniv »

cowboysauce wrote: post #555
feoren wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's a pretty common joke how virtually inapplicable calc is to us If you think calculus is not important to software development than you are not bothering to look. Just a few examples: - Calculus was the first math class I took that gave a clear definition of what a "function" really is. Do you use functions? - Analyzing the properties of functions to see what operations made sense to do or not (e.g. continuous v…

> Do you use functions? Unless you're using Haskell or something similar, mathematical functions and what most programming languages call "functions" are very different and are better referred to as procedures. Mathematical functions don't have any concept of some basic constructs like variables (state in general), I/O, or even sequential computation. Pure functional languages have to use things like monads to model…

Sure, but you know what has state? ODEs and their discrete-time analogue, recurrence relations. You first meet ODEs in calculus. Even if you say “who cares about continuous time, my computer is fundamentally discrete!” you won’t have a concept of limiting behaviors without calculus.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#662

Post by t-3 »

Nevermark wrote: post #565
RecycledEle wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of equity a society enforces should be inversely proportional to age. If a kindergartener is unable to succeed, we need to give them extra help. If a 45 year old is unable to succeed, they had their chances and it's their fault.

Even if an older person’s situation is largely not their fault, it is much more difficult to correct, and society’s benefit for its investment is much lower. On ramps for everyone are important, but as you say, far far more important and effective in people’s early years.

Children need to be educated well and given opportunities to guarantee the future of society, but ensuring adults are content or at least able to support themselves is important for stability today. More un/under-employed/unemployable people means more crime and social unrest, retarding growth and costing more resources than would have been spent supporting them.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#663

Post by CydeWeys »

AlexandrB wrote: post #428
CydeWeys wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hell, start at 10am go to 6pm. That's still less than 8 hours of instruction considering there's lunch, gym/recess, etc.

This really should vary with grade. It's hard to keep a 6 year old's attention for almost 8 hours. Far more possible in High School.

School for 6 year olds involves a lot of social recess time and playing with friends. 8 hours in total is not an unusual amount of time. But as far as instructional time goes, yes, it benefits older kids more.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#664

Post by t-3 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #509
dfxm12 wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure exactly what you're dancing around, but man, if some of those top schools in CA could reduce competition by, say, expanding admissions, that would be great.

> Not sure exactly what you're dancing around Poor Californians who can’t afford tutors will lack the skills to compete with other students. (If you’re graduating without calculus, you’ll have a tough time becoming an engineer or performing on a standardised test.) That reduces those with means’ competition, ceteris paribus .

Maybe things have changed in the ~15 years since I took the ACT, but no calculus was necessary for me to get a score in the 30s. You're probably right about getting accepted into an engineering major at a prestigious school though.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#665

Post by alephnerd »

fooker wrote: post #631
alephnerd wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because for this conversation, I felt like talking about comparable first world countries and explaining the Chinese and Indian education system to a (fellow) American is annoying and tiring. Points 1-3 are the same for India and China as well. In China, Gaokao (college admissions exam) is only allowed to those who attend College Track high schools (Sr Secondary School). To enter a Sr Secondary School (10-12) in Chin…

Are you just making this up as you type? Here's the curriculum for CBSE. https://cbseacademic.nic.in/web_material/CurriculumMain24/Sr... Most state boards are similar to this. Similarly most Chinese students end up learning calculus in school.

CBSE is literally just the limits and basic derivatives. It's literally Pre-Calculus as it is taught here in the California (Pre-Calculus with Limits, Ron Larson).

With the Chinese curriculum, same story if not at a Sr Secondary School. Here's the curriculum for the Secondary Vocational Schools (aka the schools most Chinese students end up attending) - http://www.moe.gov.cn/jyb_xxgk/s5743/s5744/A07/202001/W02020...

Notice how it caps at permutations.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#666

Post by alephnerd »

alephnerd wrote: post #577
fooker wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see India and China missing from your rebuttal, that is close to half of the worlds population and likely more than 2/3rds of all students who go to college.

Because for this conversation, I felt like talking about comparable first world countries and explaining the Chinese and Indian education system to a (fellow) American is annoying and tiring. Points 1-3 are the same for India and China as well. In China, Gaokao (college admissions exam) is only allowed to those who attend College Track high schools (Sr Secondary School). To enter a Sr Secondary School (10-12) in Chin…

> That said, given the Gaokao filtering, it probably doesn't exceed 30% in China

* Zhongkao Filtering, not Gaokao filtering

Also the Zhongkao IS mandatory, but heavily limits admissions into Sr High School (college track) Programs

Also, since 2022, Senior Vocational School students can now take the Gaokao, but given the curriculum in a Sr Vocational School as shown below, it's highly unlikely they'd meet the scores required to get into a university in China.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#667

Post by throw10920 »

proxiful-wash wrote: post #335
pwthornton wrote: post #299

This is the way. Teach kids more, not less. Ask more of them, not less. If you need to lengthen the school day and school year to do so, do it. Do it now. "So what should we do instead? Dallas came up with an answer: Teach kids more math instead of teaching them less. In 2019, Dallas Independent School District implemented a new equity policy that encouraged many more people to take honors math classes: Many capable…

It was you wonder if a foreign state adversary is influencing us to stupify our next generation. I'll keep my comments civil here but its pretty obvious who is behind this.

I don't know if it's "obvious" - the United States has at least two large enemies that have the means, motive, and opportunity to do this - picking between them is difficult.

One thing's for sure, though - it's pretty unreasonable to automatically discount the possibility of foreign influence, as others in this thread are doing.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#668

Post by [deleted] »

nobody9999 wrote: post #605
bluGill wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but it was too late for my mom. My mom would have been better off finding a different district that would let her in (this may not have been possible), instead of fighting a system that ultimately failed her.

>Sure, but it was too late for my mom. My mom would have been better off finding a different district that would let her in (this may not have been possible), instead of fighting a system that ultimately failed her. An interesting and important anecdote. But rather than focusing on your mom's inability to take shop class, perhaps you might reflect on the fact that your mom (and many other women/girls) fought for such…

[deleted]

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#669

Post by cmh89 »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #621
cmh89 wrote: post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the actual issue that we've started talking about how our obsession with race effects the people on the losing end of that deal. >. It is interesting that far fewer people feel that black people are treated fairly than in the late 90's. It would be interesting to see data going back even further. It seems intuitive to me. If you have a problem and then activists put in a ton of time to make that problem more visib…

Keep in mind my point was that the political emphasis on race is at a high point. I agree that if activist put a lot of emphasis on this and make it more visible that this feeling will be stronger. That doesn't negate the point above, it supports it. Sure, people can argue over how productive the additional attention is for actually resolving issues, but that's not what I'm trying to do. I merely staying that attenti…

>Keep in mind my point was that the political emphasis on race is at a high point.

A high point compared to what? The 90s? You have some recency bias in your understanding of this topic.

> agree that if activist put a lot of emphasis on this and make it more visible that this feeling will be stronger. That doesn't negate the point above, it supports it.

You didn't make a point, you said something was 'interesting' which I commented on because its really not, it just makes sense.

>Sure, people can argue over how productive the additional attention is for actually resolving issues, but that's not what I'm trying to do. I merely staying that attention is very high right now

I think you're mostly trying to backtrack a hot take

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#670

Post by s1artibartfast »

eftychis wrote: post #653
s1artibartfast wrote: post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source regarding the theory that the race was the primary factor in deciding the territory following the Mexican American war? I haven't encountered this example before. I'm obviously skeptical but willing to read more. As a counterpoint, the last several centuries are full of examples of countries establishing territories or colonies in foreign lands with different ethnicities. In those cases, the loca…

Certainly, good point: 2003 UCLA LAW Review: https://www.uclalawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/15_... See first paragraph section C, page 11 (293) -- also citation, but didn't have time to link it here.

Fascinating. Thanks for sharing. While Calhoun comments seem crass, they have significant parallel in contemporary politics.
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