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Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

statecraft.beehiiv.com

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Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems relevant: https://www.nytimes.com/1982/12/28/science/california-weighs... Apparently University of California used to be free.

They didn't want an educated, unemployed proletariat (their words, not mine): https://theintercept.com/2022/08/25/student-loans-debt-reaga...

> “If not,” Freeman continued, “we will have a large number of highly trained and unemployed people.” Freeman also said — taking a highly idiosyncratic perspective on the cause of fascism —“that’s what happened in Germany. I saw it happen.”

What a damaging thought for him to put out there.

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

City and community colleges exist, and are mostly free. But for most people, colleges are more than just an education. College is about signaling their aptitude. And so people keep trying to pile into expensive private school for the prestige.

> City and community colleges exist, and are mostly free. Tuition, usually. Books, maybe. Room and board, ha! As an anecdote, it cost less for one of my kids to go out of state to a private college than in-state to a public university; tuition at the public university would've been free, but the private college offered scholarships and financial aid that fully covered tuition and most of on-campus room and board. Sur…

> private college offered scholarships and financial aid

That's the thing that people don't understand about private universities' tuition prices: They're not real. The really rich kids are paying more, through donations and the like, and most students are being offered substantial discounts through both need and merit based scholarships. The inflated tuitions are all about A) signalling prestige and B) redistributing money from the rich and dumb to the smart and less wealthy.

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#663
post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Worse than just "backed by the federal government," the loans are basically protected by the government. It is really strange that government does not constrain tuitions of the colleges participating in the loan program. Currently, Universities have no incentives to control costs in any way.

Literally all they have to do is limit the maximum loan size. Max $50k per year. Anything beyond that is not subsidized or requires proof of academic performance or ability to repay.

The max should be 20k per year, maybe even 15k.

I teach part time at a relatively affordable public university and the waste, inefficiency and bureaucracy takes my breath away.

Limit loans to 15k/60k lifetime and make them forgivable. You would be amazed at how focused, productive and inexpensive higher education could get.

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#664
post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yale is not a representative college. It makes 4x the income from its endowment than from tuition, room, and board. It also has multiple research labs and a hospital . They don't break down the staff (admin) by department, but 2/3 of all faculty are in the school of Medicine, most on the clinical side. I would assume most of the staff (admin) are also working at the hospital. https://oir.yale.edu/data-browser/faculty…

Of course Yale isn’t representative, it’s just one data point in a national trend. I don’t understand your point. Do you dispute that admin staff have grown at a high rate? My point is that universities have too much admin and that it’s growth quickly. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to compare this trend without knowing exactly what specific universities do. I agree that comparing medical system admin staff wouldn…

My point is that Universities don't just teach. They also perform research, which requires staff. Yale is researched focused and has more grad students than undergrads. Grad students and research faculty require more administrative staff than undergrads. An increase in admin staff could be caused by a shift to more research rather than bloat in undergrad.

For example, a teaching university like Central Washington University has 500 faculty, 500 admin, 11.4k undergrads, and 900 post-grads. They do research at CWU, but their primary focus is teaching.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Washington_University

In comparison, UTHealth Houston is a medical university and has 2.1k faculty, 5.3k admin, and 5.2k students. UTHealth requires far more staff than CWU because it has a different focus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Texas_Health_Sci...

Finally, Stanford is a mix of the two and has 2.3k faculty, 15.3k admin!, and 17.2k students. (Stanford includes the clinic staff in their numbers. I think that clinical staff is split between Yale proper and the New Haven hospital.)

https://facts.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2021/...

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This brings me back to Yale. From the article:

> In 2003: 5,307 undergraduate students ... 3,500 administrators and managers. In 2019, before the COVID-19 pandemic’s effects on student enrollment, only 600 more students were living and studying at Yale, yet the number of administrators had risen by more than 1,500 — a nearly 45 percent hike.

So the first issue is with the student number. Yale had 12,438 students in 2019, an increase of 1278. This isn't a huge issue because the % increase is the same, but leaving out grad students is a huge oversight.

> 2003-p19(21) 11,160 students; 5,307 undergraduate, and 5,853 ... Graduate [students]

https://your.yale.edu/sites/default/files/2002-2003_annual_f...

> 2019-p7(9) 5,964 undergraduate students ... 3,032 Graduate [students] ... 3,442 [professional] students

https://your.yale.edu/sites/default/files/annual-report-2018...

Secondly, the admin:faculty ratio has decreased. Yale expanded their faculty from 3.2k to 4.9k, which is +1.7k (+53%). This tells me that Yale increased their research focus and are not (necessarily) bloating their undergrad program.

> 2003-p22(24) The University employs approximately 3,200 faculty, 3,500 managerial and professional staff, and 4,000 unionized clerical, technical, service, and maintenance personnel.

https://your.yale.edu/sites/default/files/2002-2003_annual_f...

> 2021-p13(15) With 4,937 faculty, 1,428 postdoctoral associates, 5,066 managerial and professional staff, and 5,205 clerical, technical, service, and maintenance personnel

https://your.yale.edu/sites/default/files/2020-2021-yale-uni...

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define well educated populace. Does this mean ability to read, write, and do arithmetic? Does this mean the ability to speak and read Latin with an understanding of the classics and the Bible? The ability to fix a car and build an engine? Program a computer? One could argue that a university does very little to make a populace more educated, since they can already read, write and do basic math (or should be able to)…

Well educated isn't so clearly defined: In general, though, it is having been exposed to a varying number of subjects, be able to read a varying amount of things, have enough general knowledge that they can understand the reason there are "chemicals" in food and the reasons not to mix some household chemicals together. In addition, the person has been able to dive into a particular subject more deeply than the other…

I am not sure if university is an effective place to do this. I think tricking the younger minds at primary/secondary school to be more curious and well-rounded person is much better. Once you get the ball rolling, they will hopefully keep being that way into their adulthood. For example, how do you teach a young adult to be kind when they aren't? Teaching them about kindness via multiple sessions of lectures ain't gonna cut it. You would have to "trick" and "manipulate" them into being so to bypass ego/whatever else which is much harder to do for adults.

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now I read that Wall Street is creating CDO's based on these loans, like they (continue to) do on mortgages. Some people die "early" without paying back these loans, and sometimes, they will owe more than they took out. Given the mounting problems with the numbers here, it seems a whole generation of people in the middle of this bubble are going to go to the grave while still owing on these loans. What happens to the…

Excuse my ignorance, but isn’t the point of public schools that they are free?

That would be nice, wouldn't it?

US community colleges (usually 2-year) tend to have low tuition and may offer flexible scheduling so you can pay as you go and/or work through school. Housing can still be expensive though.

US public universities may have lower fees for in-state students. UC Berkeley costs some $41K+ per year (including on-campus housing, food, etc.) for CA residents - not particularly affordable to begin with - but charges an extortionate $33K "nonresident tuition fee" on top of that for non-resident students (including any students under 24 whose parents live out of state.)

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#667
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And interestingly both have predominantly grown in "administrative" costs

No no don't let the Physician cartel get out of this. Year over year they get at least 5% pay increases with US tax dollars. Not to mention, they get private pay increases by weaponizing the ACGME to keep residency slots low. Residency does not need to be paid. Outside of the Medical industry, people pay for their college. For some reason Physicians make tax payers pay for their education and a decent salary.

Physicians are some of the larger victims of this inflation, no? Also “they” are not doing anything with ACGME in general, that’s an entirely separate issue.

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the 'service' industry is subsidized by cheap foreign labor. Harder for Schools and Hospitals to hire illegal/unskilled workers.

Are you kidding me? Half the faculty at any college, no matter the price, are adjuncts, who earn $2500 or so PER CLASS PER SEMESTER, while the 30 students in that class are charged $2500 EACH for that class. It's as close as you can get to free labor for knowledge work, basically the original Gig economy; Uber for teaching.

Almost none of that is true

Re: Tuition costs have risen 710% since 1983

#670
post #10

Makes sense when you have student loans backed by the federal government. If an 18 year old with no money and no credit history gets accepted into a qualifying university, she will be able to receive a loan since the bank knows that the government will protect their investment if she fails to pay them back. So now young people have this easy access to credit, and universities can greatly increase tuition and fees wit…

Two things you have to do to keep tuition costs down nowadays, by my estimation, unless you get a full ride scholarship or accepted by the an Ivy League: - Do your first two years at community college. A lot of states have zero tuition costs for community college credits. I think in all 50 states its the absolute cheapest way to do get your first two years done - Enterprising students may realize that if you're marri…

2+2 plans are really, really questionable in my observation. Most students I know ended up doing either 2+3 or 3+3, which since as you pointed out CC are so, so, so much cheaper than university did save them money none the less. However, if you're going into a field that has any kind of improved earning potential from a degree, you have to look at the opportunity cost, taking into account the fact that if they had just gone straight to a 4 year they would have had an extra 1-2 years of making substantially higher wages than they could before they graduated.

If you have a kid who doesn't really know if they want to, say, be an engineer, then a 2+2 plan that they realize they aren't cut out for during the cheap years probably is a huge price save. But for the kid with the tools to succeed in school, a passion for a field that pays well, and the opportunity to get into a 4 year, they should absolutely just go for it off the bat.

The other problem with the 2+2 is that you're sacrificing 2 years of one of the biggest advantages of going to competitive universities: meeting other students who could get into competitive universities. I met most of my friends I made in college in the first 2 weeks, freshman year. It's probably the single easiest time in anyone's life to make new friends and acquaintances. And those friends, beyond being invaluable to me for social and romantic reasons, also have benefited me financially: one friend's dad got me an internship, which I was able to leverage into my first job. I got my second job by no small part thanks to the recommendation of another friend who already worked there. Looking back in time, the ROI on the bottle of vodka I brought to the dorm nextdoor move-in weekend is likely in the ~10,000,000% range.

Transfer students get a greatly diminished version of that opportunity. By their upper-division levels, most students are spending a lot more time on school work, and much less time randomly meeting their dorm-hall mates. It's still possible to meet people, and my high-school friends who did the transfer route did meet some people, but there's a much greater than 50% loss in networking opportunity.

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