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New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

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Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#661

Post by mhb »

Gordonjcp wrote: post #647
mhb wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just silly.

It's one of the things I found baffling about the US, is the sheer amount of cameras on everything. People even put CCTV cameras inside their homes. What on earth?

I don't know what you mean by everything and I certainly agree that the U.S. trend is in the wrong direction with private video doorbells, license plate scanners, etc. It is also pretty crazy to put someone else's camera in your house. But I don't get how someone with a UK background could think that the situation here is somehow worse.

For example, this lists the top ten most surveilled cities. Nine are in China. Number three is London.

https://www.usnews.com/news/cities/articles/2020-08-14/the-t...

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#662

Post by mschuster91 »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #575
foepys wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can buy electric scooters nowadays that can drive a lot farther than any car with the same battery. If one was big on emission reduction, one would ban all cars and only allow scooters.

You can drive 350+ miles on a single scooter charge? Also, I have a hard time imagining anyone taking 400+ mile road trips on a scooter.

> Also, I have a hard time imagining anyone taking 400+ mile road trips on a scooter.

On a scooter not, but on a Harley or Honda Gold Wing? People make trips across Europe on these beasts.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#663

Post by JoeAltmaier »

sebastianconcpt wrote: post #581
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd agree, yet I proceed from green lights with little regard; I drink the water from the tap; I use Paypal; I take aspirin from a bottle from heaven-knows-where. We've entered the age of 'blind trust in technology'. We can hardly get out of bed without it.

There is a "pass the test of time" factor involved. If natural selection approves, then you surely can be more confident and even pay less attention because time guaranteed that plenty of diverse cases didn't compromised the survivability of the system and the system needs you less to achieve its success rate as designed. Then it comes innovation. Which necessarily starts with limited cases. And we use to launch busi…

Disagree. We used coal to heat for generations, even though it killed thousands. We drive in traffic but 100 people die each day on the road in the US.

It's all about social acceptance, and hardly about safety at all.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#664

Post by pensatoio »

mandevil wrote: post #224
pensatoio wrote: post #158

If autopilot starts braking even slightly and it shouldn't, I immediately take control. For this to happen, the driver clearly was not prepared to take control in any way. It's like driving on cruise control with your legs crossed. The automated cruise control and lane-keep on my previous car, an Audi, would occasionally do crazy things too. The hyper-focus on this being Tesla's fault continues to baffle.

Because the Audi doesn't charge users $10,000-20,000USD for "Full Self Driving," that's why we talk about it so much! If you throw it in as a safety feature in your deluxe package, and describe it as such, we aren't having this conversation. On the other hand, I strongly suspect that if they didn't do that, TSLA never gets to worth more than all other car companies in the entire world combined in market cap terms, an…

To be fair, Autopilot, which this driver was using, is included with all Teslas at no extra cost. Personally, I find that road trips are significantly less draining with Autopilot engaged. In the same way that moving from basic cruise control to radar cruise control with lane-keep reduced some load, Autopilot takes it a step further. The difference is noticable. Remaining attentive and ready doesn't negate the benefits.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#665

Post by Gordonjcp »

mhb wrote: post #661
Gordonjcp wrote: post #647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one of the things I found baffling about the US, is the sheer amount of cameras on everything. People even put CCTV cameras inside their homes. What on earth?

I don't know what you mean by everything and I certainly agree that the U.S. trend is in the wrong direction with private video doorbells, license plate scanners, etc. It is also pretty crazy to put someone else's camera in your house. But I don't get how someone with a UK background could think that the situation here is somehow worse. For example, this lists the top ten most surveilled cities. Nine are in China. Nu…

Well, mostly because the article that's always cited about the number of cameras in London is tabloid bunk, an utter fiction.

The guy that wrote it wanted a suitably shock-horror piece so he went to the main street of a shitty part of London, counted every CCTV camera he could see everywhere including ones inside all the betting shops, off-licences, pawn shops, cheque cashing places, and so on - all lovely totally-not-dodgy businesses I'm sure - and then multiplied up by the total amount of roads in the UK.

If the figures were accurate then every single-track road that's basically just a cow path with tarmac sprayed over it would have a CCTV camera every four car lengths, which is clearly not the case.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#666

Post by mhb »

Gordonjcp wrote: post #665
mhb wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what you mean by everything and I certainly agree that the U.S. trend is in the wrong direction with private video doorbells, license plate scanners, etc. It is also pretty crazy to put someone else's camera in your house. But I don't get how someone with a UK background could think that the situation here is somehow worse. For example, this lists the top ten most surveilled cities. Nine are in China. Nu…

Well, mostly because the article that's always cited about the number of cameras in London is tabloid bunk, an utter fiction. The guy that wrote it wanted a suitably shock-horror piece so he went to the main street of a shitty part of London, counted every CCTV camera he could see everywhere including ones inside all the betting shops, off-licences, pawn shops, cheque cashing places, and so on - all lovely totally-no…

Well, OK. But how is that different than the huge number of cameras that you mention in the US? Aren't the US cameras similar - doorbells, shops, banks, ATMs, etc.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#667

Post by RangerScience »

habi wrote: post #594
vbarrielle wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found it easier to understand your example by comparing to openstreetmap, which seems up to date at that location: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/54.64443/25.05401

In this OpenStreetMap example, both crossing ways are separated by a `layer` tag. This means that https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/919604270/ has `layer-1`, essentially putting it underground, while https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/921763546/ has no such layer tag, making them clearly not connected. Should Teslas autopilot get confused because of this that would be really bad.

I've definitely seen my Tesla think that signs / lights on an overpass were on the freeway (that I was cruising down). I think I've also _not_ seen it make that mistake in a long time, since that spot is one I regularly pass, but I haven't made a study of it so :/

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#668

Post by RangerScience »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #605
jackmott wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a Tesla, when using just cruise control it has slammed the brakes: because of shadows that confused it because of concern about cars crossing the intersection ahead where there is only the need to gently slow because of a car crossing an intersection ahead that has already crossed! because of a steep bridge that confused it we can’t use cruise control in the car basically, we decided it is too dangerous at wor…

The worst part of phantom braking is not just the need for a sudden human intervention. It’s that the required human intervention is extremely non-intuitive. Intuitively when a car suddenly slows down it feels like the right response is to press on the accelerator: however in my experience this puts you in an unstable regime where you are “fighting” with the car. That is, autopilot continues to try to stop but tempor…

Protip: Apply the accelerator override, then up on the right control stick to disengage automation. It's the way to smoothly transition from autopilot to human control.

(Then learn when/where/why the car thinks it should be behaving that way, drive it past those zones, and re-engage autopilot. Smooth ride!)

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#669

Post by denimnerd42 »

scotty79 wrote: post #177
denimnerd42 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do love the ACC on my car. One of the worst parts of road trips is following cars you don't want to or can't pass. The ACC totally solves it. I don't see how you were really able to use cruise to follow another car at all before? Even 1mph too slow is not great and if the car in front isn't using any cruise control at all it could be 5mph too slow and then 5mph too fast.

If you don't want to pass a car you just drop down the speed on cruise control and widen the gap between the car you don't want to pass and you. It really doesn't matter if you are 10m or 100m behind him if you are not going to pass it. And if you get too far behind him you might bump up the speed a notch. And if somebody gets in the gap it's even better because they are going to eventually overtake him just like the…

I always have to write a novel on HN. This is a very commmon cross country situation where I live: let's say I can't pass a car due to road conditions where the car's speed varies between 70 and 75 mph and my desired speed is 75mph. I know in 5 to 10 miles there will be a 1 or 2 mile passing lane I can use. In order to eventually pass that car I need to stick to within 150-250 feet of that vehicle so I can make use of the passing lane. If I just "drive slow" not only am I not going to be able to pass the car driving erratically, no one behind me is going to be able to either until the next passing lane in 10-20 miles.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#670

Post by bavila »

userbinator wrote: post #347
choeger wrote: post #330

Everyone claiming that the autopilot is at fault for stopping suddenly get something very important very wrong: Stopping a car must be possible at all times. Any automation in a car should always be able to stop the car as the safe default. The same holds for human drivers, of course: Consider the possibility that the vehicle in front of the Tesla just lost some of its load. Of course the Tesla then has to stop sudde…

The same holds for human drivers, of course: Consider the possibility that the vehicle in front of the Tesla just lost some of its load. The difference is that the humans in the cars behind will be able to see that too and anticipate the reason for the braking. In this case, the Tesla just changes into the leftmost lane and then brakes very quickly to a stop for no apparent reason . A human doing the same thing would…

I am convinced the Tesla apologists in this thread are more concerned about the value of their TSLA stock than they are about human life. Clearly, the public has the right to expect that other vehicles on the road will be driving in a reasonable manner. There was no reasonable necessity for the Tesla in that video to maneuver as it did. If a human driver did the same thing for no justifiable reason, the same Tesla apologists would be singing a different tune.
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