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Nobody wants to teach anymore

jessicalexicus.medium.com

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Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#661
The same problem is happening in NL, it's a downwards spiral really that concerns me a lot. The government is trying to improve the situation by increasing pay a little, but with the current inflation it is probably too little, too late.

A relative of mine became a teacher after a career switch, and while she likes the work, there are many frustrations:

- Parents have a 'the customer is always right'-attitude, and complain about everything, but their kids are perfect of course.

- Some years ago NL decided to cut down on schools for kids with special needs, so every class now has a few very disruptive kids who have nowhere else to go. This is a very frustrating situation for everyone: the disruptive kids don't get proper guidance, the 'normal' kids get lower quality classes, and teachers have to deal with problematic behaviour.

- The shortage of teachers makes it hard to find replacements when calling in sick, plenty of teachers feel pressure to work when sick. This is of course a bad combo with the whole Corona situation.

- Teachers spend a lot of (unpaid) time grading and other administrative BS.

- Management is out of touch, they don't listen to their staff and think up time-consuming plans that are doomed to fail. (well, this is not specific to education) - Management is very unstable. The schools my kids go to had a different director pretty much each year.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#662
post #646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You totally missed the point though. The value you create has almost nothing to do with how much you’re paid. That’s just the most you could possibly be paid. You’re paid the amount your employer thinks it would cost to replace you.

And you're arguing that that's a good thing?

I think markets are generally good, yes. If someone wants to do your job for cheaper and they’re just as good they should get the job. Either way, I don’t think it makes sense to talk about things like this as good or bad, they just are the way the are unless you’re talking about a complete revolution.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, if you're married and have a second income, then that second income is basically subsidizing education. My wife was a teacher and retired when our kid was born, because we could. Some time in her 50s she'll be able to draw her pension. But basically the only reason we can afford to live in the Silicon Valley is because I'm an engineer with a decent salary. A lot of her paycheck went right back into her classroo…

> But basically the only reason we can afford to live in the Silicon Valley is because I'm an engineer with a decent salary The existence of California -- and San Francisco, in particular -- makes discussions like this one difficult, because yes, sure, San Francisco is too weird to exist and is therefore basically irrelevant in national policy discussions. I live in Rhode Island. East Coast. An hour from Boston. Expe…

> San Francisco is too weird to exist and is therefore basically irrelevant in national policy discussions.

Not SF, but more people live in LA County than in the ten least popular states. If only we could ignore them and their 20 senators as completely irrelevant when it came to national policy discussions...

(We can't, and we don't.)

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#664
Judging from this thread, my opinion on this is not going to be popular, please don't massacre me for it, just discuss it with me if you want, I won't be mean (unless you are) but I will be candid.

Good. I'm glad nobody wants to teach anymore. The less teachers we have the better. That's for everyone, including the teachers. A surefire way to get paid more is a shortage of professionals. If you are so important as to be indispensable to society, maybe prove it by withholding your services. If you're so indispensable they'll pay you to get you to come back, and if they don't, fine, they'll find out just how indispensable you are.

Teachers, at least in the US, are in fact glorified babysitters. The amount of stuff a kid in public school learns in 13 years that they actually use could be taught in 5. Public school is subsidized daycare so that the US could double it's labor force. This is not how I want it to be, I want kids to actually learn things, and only go to school to learn and not to be herded. I want overworked teachers to work less, much, much less.

I have no doubt many of them are overworked, treated badly, and go into it at least because they care about children learning. But maybe it's like that because it's the only way an economy and society can justify the expense. Maybe the role they play is not worth as much as they think it is. Maybe they should stop teaching.

I think most teachers have an overinflated sense of their contribution. Ask yourself, if they'll hire anyone off the street, that means anyone off the street wants to teach. That should tell you something about teaching, and if they really wouldn't last a week then don't sweat it, they're no threat to you, they'll be gone in a week.

My big problem with education is not the teachers, it's the giant all encompassing bureaucracy that teachers and students have to constantly navigate. It seems to me like teachers by and large aren't that interested in simplifying that bureaucracy, even though from their complaints it's the largest source of their problems. I wonder why they don't attack it directly? I'm curious why they haven't all quit too. I want most of them to quit.

Put your money where your mouth is. Show us what we all stand to lose without you. Don't tolerate this bullshit anymore. Quit. Find a profession where you're treated better. If you're right, we will beg you to come back. Make us beg. Make us grovel. Show us what it feels like. Rub our faces in it.

I don't think teachers are "essential workers." I think that they don't quit because if they did, we (and they) would find out that we don't actually need them as much as they tell us we do.

Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, it wouldn't be the first time. You're wrong until you learn, right? Educate me.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#665
post #26

Currently turnover is high for many jobs with great working conditions, so it shouldn't be news that people don't want a stressful job with relatively mediocre pay. I don't have the data to back it up, but I would expect a few European countries to be the only exception, and only those that have moved on from older educational models.

Not just mediocre pay, but nowadays unlivable pay with the current rent trends in suburban and city environments.

>Not just mediocre pay, but nowadays unlivable pay with the current rent trends in suburban and city environments.

Not just "nowadays." I recall (I've looked around, but can't find it archived) an article from 2000 in the San Jose Mercury News about full-time public school teachers living in homeless shelters because they couldn't afford housing in San Jose.

So, no. Not new. Still a big problem, but not a new one.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People with kids will tell you how well "internet education" went the last 2 years... This isn't a technology problem. Kids are still kids. Fortnite will still be more fun than doing math, whether that's on a computer or in a classroom.

> People with kids will tell you how well "internet education" went the last 2 years We had a bunch of school districts with little to no experience running distance education, with a vested interest in return-to-classroom, all attempt to implement an online curriculum practically overnight. I don't consider it fair to consider that "online learning" or an earnest attempt at a successful home schooling curriculum. To…

The problems aren't technology related. No amount of curriculum change will make a parent be able to WFH forever or provide enough attention for their child because they're too busy putting food on their table and working to the only metric that matters above all else for their outcomes: money.

> To drive that point home, a family I know in Washington State had two kids in the school district during that disaster. The school district shifted a tone of responsibility onto parents and kids. The parents were fed up and switched to a for-profit homeschool program. Their kids are still home schooled - they never went back to the school district after COVID ended.

Yea, we get it, some people can afford homeschooling and have time to do it. That doesn't scale nationwide.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the engineer who thinks everything can be solved with software. To automate grading you first must create a general AI, because if you just do multiple choice exams, you aren't really testing or measuring someone's ability to perform the task, you're just measuring their ability to make a good guess. And some teachers do that. But not the good ones. As for planning, some senior teachers have filing cabinets label…

> Ah, the engineer who thinks everything can be solved with software. Just as a bit of feedback, starting your comment like this may have turned off the original poster to the rest of your thoughts, which I agree with.

Not GP, but I frequently start comments like this if the comment I’m replying to isn’t just slightly off, but reflects a deeply unexamined prior. It’s a signal that “The thing that’s wrong with your comment isn’t even in the text of the comment, it’s in the worldview that led you to think this in the first place. Simply reacting to the text of the comment would be insufficient.”

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like there are two jobs here: babysitting, and teaching. Both are valuable, though likely that the former isn’t as difficult skill to master.

The problem is usually that in a very disrupted classroom, teaching is going to be impossible, so you do need to have the ability to keep things manageable. If kids start climbing on things and throwing stuff no one is going to pay attention to math.

There have to be consequences for actions like that. If there are no consequences, then yes teaching will become impossible.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think it's cherry-picking to encourage parents to find the best school for their children, even if it isn't yours. Why? Because "cherry-picking" is bad and the best things for children are good? It's, of course, exactly cherry-picking to find the children with the most interested and motivated parents, then filter them down to the ones that you like best. Fuck the kids with bad or no parents.

If I'm a parent who is typically interested and motivated, am I committing a sin against social justice if I am interested and motivated in my children's education and work to provide opportunities for them to learn?

You're not sinning, you're just reacting to incentives.

This isn't a moral condemnation of you, it's just the fact-based explanation for why schools that you have to apply to produce better academic outcomes than default public schooling. If those public schools could just drop the cohort of students whose parents couldn't be arsed to apply to a special school, their quality would also go up.

Re: Nobody wants to teach anymore

#670

Judging from this thread, my opinion on this is not going to be popular, please don't massacre me for it, just discuss it with me if you want, I won't be mean (unless you are) but I will be candid. Good. I'm glad nobody wants to teach anymore. The less teachers we have the better. That's for everyone, including the teachers. A surefire way to get paid more is a shortage of professionals. If you are so important as to…

Education is a public good. It’s precisely the kind of thing markets are not great at on their own.

That doesn’t mean that education as we have it now is perfect, but you also don’t need to throw the baby out with the bathwater and return to the middle ages in order to try solving some of its problems.

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