Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer • Hacker News Board

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#661

Post by zd123 » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 10:34 AM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #365

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #310

> “if they ask about time off in the first interview then they are never going to be there!” The fact that this attitude is common scares me when I'm doing interviews. Time off is incredibly important to me. What's the use of making a great income if you can't get the time off to enjoy it? The culture about the use of PTO varies wildly between companies. A friend of mine worked somewhere that supposedly gave 20 days…

The context is key. First interview . The issue isn’t taking time off, it’s that the prospective employee’s head is up their proverbial ass. First interview is propspecting. If you were selling a product, if the customer is asking about the return policy before even selecting an option, it’s a similar signal. When you’re in a subsequent interview talking about the benefit plan, salary, etc, that’s where that sort of…

PTO is not the return policy, it’s a core feature of the product (in this case the job).

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#662

Post by jart » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 10:40 AM UTC

> The 10x programmer is a silly myth. The idea that someone can produce in 1 day what another competent, hard working, similarly experienced programmer can produce in 2 weeks is silly.

The only thing about the 10x programmer saying that's a myth, is the assumption that it's a quality inherent to the person. You can absolutely accomplish the same level of impact in a week that might take a competent respectable colleague a year, and you don't have to be a genius to do it.

You just have to have a good idea at the right moment. It doesn't even have to be a constant thing. In my career, sometimes I'm just a normal programmer and sometimes I do some bona fide 10x work. A lot the times the 10x work I get the most kudos for will be some absurdly simple low-effort yet impactful thing, like sending pull requests to projects that change a single line of code to bump up a version number in an xml file that has 0days. But because the idea is so simple and almost silly, I can do it a few hundred times and have more impact. Then I can take into consideration that many of these projects I'm fixing are libraries or frameworks, so I'm not only rescuing the project but rescuing their users too.

That kind of transitive impact is what makes 10x possible. Programming isn't like a 19th century assembly line where labor had a very static measurable and manageable impact. Our culture is still catching up in fully understanding and internalizing the enabling impact that computers make possible.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#663

Post by goto11 » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 10:47 AM UTC

matheusmoreira wrote: post #441

goto11 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost any advice is useless if you write code purely for your own enjoyment. This is why the context is so important. If you enjoy writing convoluted unmaintainable useless code then who is to stop you? Just understand most advice does not apply to your context. Most software development advice tacitly assume you want to write code which works and is long-term maintainable (potentially by someone other than yourself…

> If you enjoy writing convoluted unmaintainable useless code then who is to stop you? Does anyone actually do this? I think it's the opposite. I've spent truly absurd amounts of time thinking about how to do things properly. I read books, read other people's code, read programming language implementations, I just read and learn as much as I possibly can before I even start doing anything. I want my code to be right.…

I don't think anyone deliberate writes unmaintainable code except as a joke. Hard to maintain code happen when some other objective takes priority - performance, abstractions, architectural purity, DRY or whatever else a developer might enjoy focusing on.

The most maintainable code tend to be the least clever. But developers enjoy being clever, so without any outside pressure to deliver maintainable code, developers will tend towards less maintainable code.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#664

Post by alephu5 » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 10:57 AM UTC

quadcore wrote: post #96

The 10x programmer is a silly myth. The idea that someone can produce in 1 day what another competent, hard working, similarly experienced programmer can produce in 2 weeks is silly. You know, 10x is an optimistic number here. Some programmers will do in 1 day what you wont achieve in a life time. And not understanding that makes you a bad programmer by my book simply because this is the foundation of the job. So let…

The point is 10x what? Compared to who?

We all know people who code faster than the rest of the team but they always cut corners. Part of the reason that everyone else is slower is because they're trying to work around the under-tested tightly coupled mess left behind by the 10x guy.

Then there's the 10x complexity discussed in the parent comment. Plenty of people will take years to solve a problem, if at all, that someone else would manage in a month. However this may be reversed for a different problem since it depends on experience and predisposition, so it makes no sense to talk about a '10x engineer' in this regard.

I share the conclusion with the OP that it's a vague and ultimately useless distinction.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#665

Post by noisy_boy » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 11:03 AM UTC

JackFr wrote: post #209

scottious wrote: post #107

> I’d rather someone give me opinions that I violently disagree with than for them to have no opinions at all. I've been a developer for 15 years... anybody else feel like the further they get into their career, the more they want to keep their opinions to themselves? I feel like as a junior dev I had way stronger opinions and I was a lot more vocal about them. Now, I still have opinions, but I've learned that nobody…

I got dinged in a 360 review by peers for not advocating for my views more. I feel that if I present what I think we should do, and why I think it's the best alternative, I shouldn't have to get into a shouting match or even a debate. I don't take it personally if people disagree with me. If I've got the best ideas and my managers are ignoring them for the loudest ideas, that's on them, not me.

Maybe they are pissed that they cant drag you in the failures by saying "even X had the same opinion..."

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#666

Post by OJFord » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 11:03 AM UTC

theonething wrote: post #437

ghaff wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is especially true if the company uses "unlimited"/not-tracked/etc. time. Otherwise, unless you know someone at the place (and even then it can vary by group), you're left with making assumptions about norms that may not be accurate. Personally, I've never not used all my PTO in a given year and would consider being unable to do so a show stopper.

I really like the policy of "minimum mandatory time off" some companies have. That makes a big statement about where their priorities are in terms of care for their employees' well-being.

In many jurisdictions, there's a statutory minimum amount of annual leave; you can take less but then the difference must be paid in lieu. (Versus if you give 30d, 18d is minimum, and employee takes 20d, then you don't have to do anything. Obviously could have a company policy of paying it if you want.)

So, a more cynical take on mandatory time off, and something that absolutely does happen, is that they'd just rather not have the work than have to pay extra for it.

Also common is not rolling over into the next year, so use it or lose it.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#667

Post by OJFord » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 11:09 AM UTC

adrianmonk wrote: post #544

bluGill wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At my company you get one interview, if you get a second interview it is because we liked you but someone else was better and passed your resume on to a different team. One thing we do is take every candidate to lunch (COVID has changed this of course) with someone who doesn't have input into if you are hired: so feel free to ask those questions that you are not sure about. Having done a few interviews, nobody knows…

> lunch ... with someone who doesn't have input I think part of this could be that they don't know whether to believe that you truly have no input. When I was an interviewee, my lunch escort told me they didn't, and I was pretty sure it wasn't a devious trick to get me to let my guard down, but I had no way of knowing for sure. I also thought, if there isn't a formal process, maybe if I say something too dumb or wron…

Maybe better than a single 'lunch escort' would be a group of friends, or a team the candidate isn't being considered for or something.

So that there's some joviality (or not! Something to get an impression of) without putting such one on one pressure on the candidate so that it still feels like an interview. Candidate can just sit and eat even and enjoy others' conversation.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#668

Post by hnlmorg » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 11:17 AM UTC

xyzelement wrote: post #483

chown wrote: post #474

> No one is going to tell you in an interview that they are going to be unreliable, abusive, pompous, or never show up to meetings on time. People might claim they have “signals” for these things… I had a great interview with one of the FAANG companies. The technical interviews, 6 of them in a row!, felt more like they were wanting to see me fail spectacularly rather than focus on my approach of solving whiteboard pr…

>> I struggle with work-life-balance and working on it. If I can overcome that and learn how to take breaks timely I might be more productive.". .. HR didn't like it because it was not one of the canned responses she was expecting ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Just curious, how do you know that (a) you failed in HR (b) that it was this question and (c) for this reason? I ask because it's unlikely that this was literally the feedback giv…

> I do think this is more "in your head" that real. Nobody shows up to an interview wanting the other person to fail

You say that but I've known interviewers who have taken delight in putting pressure on candidates and then showing off how clever they are in comparison. These types of interviews definitely aren't the norm but sadly it does happen from time to time.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#669

Post by HolidayguyNOR » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 11:25 AM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #427

ghaff wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but it also doesn't give any indication of norms around the amount of time off people take. Expectations may differ from how much time is in a traditional PTO bank but at least in general, it's OK to take accrued time off barring special circumstances.

I worked at a place that gave us 2 weeks and then took an act of Congress and months of social engineering to take even a day. We got bought out and the new overlords announced they were going to give us five weeks of vacation. There was actual laughter in the room. We can't even use 2 weeks, what's 5 gonna do for us?

In Norway you're required by law to take four weeks and a day vacation every year. Almost everyone has five weeks vacation time in total. Both you and your employer can demand that three of those are continuous during summer, and most of the country shuts down three weeks in July.

Re: Things I’ve learned in my 20 years as a software engineer

#670

Post by HolidayguyNOR » Sat, Oct 09, 2021, 11:26 AM UTC

redisman wrote: post #484

ghaff wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but it also doesn't give any indication of norms around the amount of time off people take. Expectations may differ from how much time is in a traditional PTO bank but at least in general, it's OK to take accrued time off barring special circumstances.

We really need a new standard. Unlimited PTO Min 20 days/year. If you don’t put a number then it’s assumed to be 0

In Norway you're required by law to take four weeks and a day vacation every year. Almost everyone has five weeks vacation time in total. Both you and your employer can demand that three of those are continuous during summer, and most of the country shuts down three weeks in July.