Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

arstechnica.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

661–670 of 1001 posts

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#661

Post by jjcon »

blackbrokkoli wrote: post #609
codegladiator wrote: post #532

Is there a possibility that we (us at hn, pro-privacy) are all just paranoid and the worst case scenarios we can imagine are never really going to happen ? I am a heavy advocate of privacy and the main driving factor for these conversations in my friend/family circle. Trying to get people to a different platform since 2 years now (they did and came back), so now I wonder if I am just wasting time really for a apocaly…

I mean the advent of business computing was very literally the systematic eradication of 6 million Jews. IBM's custom designed punch cards and the absolute openness of census records (church books are rarely encrypted) was the only reason the third Reich was ever able to census all European Jews and then systematically deport them in any reasonable time frame. That is obviously very different from new WhatsApp TOS, b…

I’m pretty fricken sure they would have worked around not having that specific punch card tech - it’s like saying 9/11 wouldn’t have happened if Linux didn’t exist because the taliban used Linux systems

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#663

Post by MattPalmer1086 »

SkyMarshal wrote: post #446
MattPalmer1086 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've used Signal for years, and for most of that time only had about three people who also used it in my contacts. My wife recently got her entire extended family to use Signal. She has always refused to use WhatsApp. They all love Signal now, and use it all the time. However, this was during a family crisis. During the Covid lockdowns, many companies I know used Signal as their preferred non corporate communication…

How did the Covid lockdowns and family crisis in your examples affect the choice between Whatsapp and Signal?

For my wife, she had to travel abroad and the family had to stay in contact with her. Since she absolutely wouldn't use WhatsApp, they all installed Signal, and discovered it's actually really usable now.

I can only speak for why one company adopted Signal over WhatsApp, but the main reason was that the company did not want their communication metadata tracked by Facebook. They were regarded as equivalent in terms of E2E encryption and functionality.

EDIT: They also did not trust Facebook entirely not to break the E2E in some way (eg cloud backups or whatever), and the message contents had to remain secure. It wasn't a huge concern, but all else being equal, Signal was the better choice.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#664

Post by chalst »

dessant wrote: post #548
chalst wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like Signal's stance on forks (which is that they are allowed but may not use the official Signal network) but it hardly has identical drawbacks. Signal is open source, can be downloaded as an official APK and can be run on LineageOS without Google Play (notifications do require some emulation of Play Services calls, but that can be provided using MicroG).

> forks ... may not use the official Signal network Is it technically prevented or just frowned upon? The former would be strange, because fixing a bug in your own private fork would also exclude you from the network.

There are forks of the Signal client that do use the OWS servers [1], but IIUC they are in violation of the OWS TOS. Certainly moxie has threatened to block forked clients, which is why F-droid won't host any of these forks [2].

[1]: https://github.com/tw-hx/Signal-Android

[2]: https://forum.f-droid.org/t/we-can-include-signal-in-f-droid...

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#665

Post by jeroenhd »

submeta wrote: post #662

Does anybody know how we can export our Whatsapp chats in Germany? It used to be possible, it‘s not allowed anymore. But any workarounds?

On a rooted/jailbroken phone, there are apps that just dump the database into a readable format.

Theoretically you might be able to get something out of the local or cloud backups, but they're encrypted so they're probably difficult to get a hold of. The key is stored in the private application data, but there must be some way to get it back/regenerate it because you can restore a backup without copying any secrets from the previous phone.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#666

Post by jariel »

This is not nice, but remember they are merely doing what Google does, in the sense that all of their properties are inexorably and deeply linked.

The only surprise is that this was not done sooner.

WhatsApp is somewhat more essential for a lot of people, and contains more sensitive information, so this is not good.

At least with FB and Insta, you can just keep rubbish information stored in there.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#667

Post by Tepix »

lrvick wrote: post #503
submeta wrote: post #467

I am in the EU, and this is what I have been presented with: „ By tapping Agree, you accept the new terms, which take effect on February 8, 2021. After this date, you’ll need to accept the new terms to continue using WhatsApp. You can also visit the Help Center if you would prefer to delete your account and would like more information. To learn more about how WhatsApp processes your data, read our updated privacy pol…

So you are going to move from one centralized, walled garden, privacy hostile platform that hard requires Google/Apple ecosystems to get signed updates... to another with identical drawbacks. I suggest something that lets you use any client/platform you want, uses the same crypto primitives, and lets you choose what server/country your data is hosted in and change your mind any time, e.g Matrix. How many times do cen…

> So you are going to move from one centralized, walled garden, privacy hostile platform that hard requires Google/Apple ecosystems to get signed updates... to another with identical drawbacks.

Ideally we'd have a polished, decentralized app. Signal is a compromise. I don't think the drawbacks are identical:

Facebook's business model depends on violatings the privacy of the users. The Signal Foundation has no such need.

The client is open source. I see no reason to call Signal "privacy hostile".

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#668

Post by dessant »

dan-robertson wrote: post #601
dessant wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our quest to fully convert to Signal has hit a major wall, Android tablets are not supported as linked devices. Supporting tablets would allow us to chat and send files across devices, without resorting to apps like Messenger.

Can you run the web interface to signal in the tablet’s web browser? I thought basically no one used android tablets anyway

Signal has no web client.

> I thought basically no one used android tablets anyway

Tens of millions of Android tablets are sold every quarter.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#669

Post by lrvick »

jamaicahest wrote: post #632
lrvick wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are going to move from one centralized, walled garden, privacy hostile platform that hard requires Google/Apple ecosystems to get signed updates... to another with identical drawbacks. I suggest something that lets you use any client/platform you want, uses the same crypto primitives, and lets you choose what server/country your data is hosted in and change your mind any time, e.g Matrix. How many times do cen…

> The only network services this won't become true of at some point in the future are those with decentralized clients and servers obeying a common documented protocol. You mean like SMS?

I didn't say all decentralized services are good. Just that decentralization is a prerequisite for something to avoid complete control by a single party long term.

A better example would be HTTP/HTML/JS. Sure it is not perfect and protocol updates are hard and slow due to endless implementations but we got a working decentralized internet out of the deal that is very hard for any single party to take over now, so I call that worth it over a single party enforcing proprietary protocols like AOL having a total monopoly.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#670

Post by Aachen »

chalst wrote: post #539
lrvick wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are going to move from one centralized, walled garden, privacy hostile platform that hard requires Google/Apple ecosystems to get signed updates... to another with identical drawbacks. I suggest something that lets you use any client/platform you want, uses the same crypto primitives, and lets you choose what server/country your data is hosted in and change your mind any time, e.g Matrix. How many times do cen…

I don't like Signal's stance on forks (which is that they are allowed but may not use the official Signal network) but it hardly has identical drawbacks. Signal is open source, can be downloaded as an official APK and can be run on LineageOS without Google Play (notifications do require some emulation of Play Services calls, but that can be provided using MicroG).

"hardly has drawbacks" My notes on Signal contain the following:

+ It usually just works

+ Reasonable desktop experience (needs to re-link once a month or so, but otherwise independent and not terrible UX), good mobile experience

- Metadata handled by Amazon

- Phone number is a hard requirement, and changing your phone number means re-connecting to everyone

- Funding comes from Facebook from what I recall, and even with large amounts of their $100M invested, their expenses are 8 times larger than their income.

+ At least it's a foundation and their finances are not a black box!

~ With a build from an untrusted third party, you can make it work on Androids where Google Play Services are intentionally firewalled off.

~ No audit of the clients. The protocol, sure, but most bugs aren't introduced on a protocol level.

These are only things they could solve, i.e. that others do better. That their contact discovery solution (where you upload your phone book) is broken isn't a downside because nobody else has that figured out either.

Post reply on HN