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We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

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Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#661

Post by TotallyHaram »

495636483 wrote: post #554
machinelabo wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the most illuminating assessments of Twitter. It’s virtue signaling , as cliche as it sounds to use that term - that’s what Twitter has become. No fault of Twitter, we’ve created a culture in our society where persons with their open identity cannot easily voice dissenting opinions and going against the grain without getting cancelled. What a fucked up world we live in.

I am not on twitter. What's with this canceling? Who got cancelled? What does that mean for them? Could you illustrate some examples?

Cancel culture is when the Twitter Strangler deletes your current account for the 23rd time because you point out the irony of someone working in 'AI ethics' is 100% unethical for trying to extort the company they work for with their own political agenda, regardless of the companies interests or needs. Thankfully this 'ethical AI researcher' will no longer be employed teaching or guiding ethics in AI.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#662

Post by TotallyHaram »

thu2111 wrote: post #381
thinkingemote wrote: post #365

Anyone else see the narrative on Twitter to be so much different than Reddit and hacker news? On reddit and hacker news I have never seen any unconditional support for Timmit. Even amongst those anti Google and broadly in support of her, there's no whole agreement with all of what Timmit says; the assertion of her story, the reasons why and the conclusions. that a. She was fired b. That she was fired because of sexis…

Remember that outside the valley AI bubble Gebru is primarily famous for having publicly whipped up a mob against Yann LeCun and chasing him off Twitter by constantly claiming he was a racist sexist white man with no clue. Given that, it's maybe not a huge surprise that the tweets you're finding are more pro-Timnit than actually exists. Another obvious problem: she keeps being described as a highly respected AI resea…

I am not vested in AI research at all. But I am horrified by the possibility that 'data' and 'science' need to be ignored by AI so that false equality among the races could be realized. Timnit was refining this unethical approach IMO by using extortion against her own employer. Just the thought that someone who is basically an unethical emotional terrorist would be programming AI to ignore actual data and science in favor of their own race is chilling.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#663

Post by TotallyHaram »

skinkestek wrote: post #528
rbanffy wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The basic difference is that she implied I&D work at Google was ineffective while he implied half his co-workers were unworthy of their jobs. She made her managers mad while he made half the company mad.

> while he implied half his co-workers were unworthy of their jobs. Why do you and other keep propagating this myth? If anything I think you are making it harder for women in IT: You are building a narrative that many respected people doesn't respect girls in IT which probably makes it even harder for them to choose IT. Also I think you are building up under the idea that men and women are enemies in the workplace. A…

Do you really think women belong in business? As a woman I have never in the past questioned this, however this particular episode and reading through the 'ethical' female responses has made me question having women in the workplace at all due to a total disregard for ethical behavior AND a total inability to understand that they were even acting unethically. Attempting to extort your employer for your own political narrative is un-ethical. Honestly she sounds like a total nightmare. The last thing in the world I would want to see is someone like that involved in machine learning and ethics.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#664

Post by TotallyHaram »

KingOfCoders wrote: post #159
angry_octet wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming that reCaptcha is training some Google algorithm. But in fact it has trained you -- to recognise US style dangly traffic lights, yellow school busses and cabs, pedestrian cross walks -- and this makes me wonder if reCaptcha does use the same image set for all different locations. Are people in Lagos, Pune and Tashkent routinely failing reCaptcha at higher rates because they don't watch US television?…

I knew those already from being flooded for 40+ years with Hollywood films (all of them) and sitcoms, I know Cosby, Malcolm in the Middle, Beverly Hills 90210, Miami Vice, the Fall Guy, Seinfeld, Friends, Lou Grant, Mary Tyler Moore Show, Diff'rent Strokes, Cheers, Golden Girls, M A S*H (the best), Married... with Children, Three’s Company, King of Queens, Family Matters and on and on and on. Basically I know the US…

Those images being exported to the planet are not representative of the USA. Hollywood is mostly Jewish and Homosexual, those are the products of these minds instead. I doubt actual American programming would resemble any of these sitcoms.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#665

Post by TotallyHaram »

Macha wrote: post #276
angry_octet wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming that reCaptcha is training some Google algorithm. But in fact it has trained you -- to recognise US style dangly traffic lights, yellow school busses and cabs, pedestrian cross walks -- and this makes me wonder if reCaptcha does use the same image set for all different locations. Are people in Lagos, Pune and Tashkent routinely failing reCaptcha at higher rates because they don't watch US television?…

Even in Europe I sometimes find reCAPTCHA more difficult for being "too American". Maybe we're categorised as "close enough" and there are south American or African datasets but I suspect not.

Or maybe they are not required to solve the captcha because bot traffic from these nations is too sparse to have this make sense.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#666

Post by vimy »

ALittleLight wrote: post #109
rayiner wrote: post #26

> An AI model taught to view racist language as normal is obviously bad. The researchers, though, point out a couple of more subtle problems. One is that shifts in language play an important role in social change; the MeToo and Black Lives Matter movements, for example, have tried to establish a new anti-sexist and anti-racist vocabulary. An AI model trained on vast swaths of the internet won’t be attuned to the nuan…

"What people say" is itself quite nuanced. Words that two black might say to one another may be casual but appropriate and yet extremely offensive if said by a white person, or, presumably, an AI, in a different context. What the AI should say is hard given that there is no one right answer to the question of what any individual should say. Different contexts change the equation completely. Seems like a nightmare to…

Sorry to hijack this comment but are you aware stumblingon.com is down? Error message: Not found - Request ID: 78591950-5c3e-4c76-9499-03931fab131e-53382846

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#667

Post by ALittleLight »

vimy wrote: post #666
ALittleLight wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What people say" is itself quite nuanced. Words that two black might say to one another may be casual but appropriate and yet extremely offensive if said by a white person, or, presumably, an AI, in a different context. What the AI should say is hard given that there is no one right answer to the question of what any individual should say. Different contexts change the equation completely. Seems like a nightmare to…

Sorry to hijack this comment but are you aware stumblingon.com is down? Error message: Not found - Request ID: 78591950-5c3e-4c76-9499-03931fab131e-53382846

Hey, thanks for telling me. Should be up now.

I was actually going to turn the website off (I believe it hasn't been working for a couple weeks now) as I didn't think anybody was using it. Glad to see someone is though - it's back on!

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#668

Post by TotallyHaram »

ur-whale wrote: post #420

It's not the paper that forced her out: she forced herself out.

Yes, by trying to use extortion against her employer to advance her own political agenda.

Highly unethical.

I am glad that she will not be participating in 'ethics' and machine learning any longer because it was totally ironic that someone this unethical would even be considered for the position.

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#669

Post by vimy »

ALittleLight wrote: post #667
vimy wrote: post #666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to hijack this comment but are you aware stumblingon.com is down? Error message: Not found - Request ID: 78591950-5c3e-4c76-9499-03931fab131e-53382846

Hey, thanks for telling me. Should be up now. I was actually going to turn the website off (I believe it hasn't been working for a couple weeks now) as I didn't think anybody was using it. Glad to see someone is though - it's back on!

Really? That's a shame. I use it whenever I want to experience the indie web. I shared it with a friend and he's also a fan. I have even submitted a couple of websites.

If you do turn it off, would you mind sharing your list of websites?

Re: We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google

#670

Post by ALittleLight »

vimy wrote: post #669
ALittleLight wrote: post #667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, thanks for telling me. Should be up now. I was actually going to turn the website off (I believe it hasn't been working for a couple weeks now) as I didn't think anybody was using it. Glad to see someone is though - it's back on!

Really? That's a shame. I use it whenever I want to experience the indie web. I shared it with a friend and he's also a fan. I have even submitted a couple of websites. If you do turn it off, would you mind sharing your list of websites?

Glad to hear that.

I'm learning django right now and for my first project (after the tutorial project) I will recreate stumblingon. When I do I'll add a logging/metrics system of some kind. That way, I won't make premature decisions about turning it off in future.

I'll also commit to replacing the website with a list of the index for a month or so before (if) I turn it off for good.

Now that I'm thinking about remaking it, is there anything you think is missing from the website?

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