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M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

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661–670 of 882 posts

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#661
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Those machines are just standing around in their underwear now because the M1 stole all their pants. Not sure what shitty machine hes talking about, but my threadripper's are not impressed with some 4 core M1.

but my threadripper's are not impressed with some 4 core M1 The M1 has 8 CPU cores, 8 GPU cores and 16 Neural Engine cores. It also runs at 10 watts and maxes out at 24 watts. A Threadripper starts at over 100 watts…

Some people don't care about performance per watt and only care about absolute performance.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#662

I don't doubt Apple's CPUs are great, but they coincide with the Mac's transition into a product I, otherwise, no longer wish to use. I want access to my boot volume. I don't want cloud anything . So Apple's technical prowess now makes me sad. I can either use an OS that doesn't head further every year in a direction I hate, or I can have a fast computer.

Agreed, I looked at the M1 and went out and bought an XPS15. MacOS scares me, wont be long before everything has to be bought from the app store.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#663
post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fair enough, I have occasionally read his blog over the years (mainly linked from other sites such as MacRumors). That's also how I saw how many scoops he's been given by them (because if they were actual leaks I'm sure he would have been cut off by now, knowing Apple's secrecy). But I don't remember him being this lyrical about Apple as he is here. However I used to be an Apple fan and Mac used to be my daily…

What lockdown is grating to you? I grew up on BSD multi-user systems and Apple things still look the same to me: crusty BSD with ancient coreutils in the terminal, nice rounded corners in the GUI. What is the iPad-ification? Just the code signing stuff? I guess you can't write to /System anymore these days? And there's something about app notarization, but it doesn't really affect any of my uses.

Among other problems, Safari keychain backups don’t work unless you store them in iCloud (and there’s no warning about this):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24626562

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#664

One of my best friends was high up in the M1 project (don't want to get too specific, but he works at Apple). I am not surprised about the M1 performance numbers at all. Granted, I have a degree in this area (silicon design) and many friends in the industry. But it's the sort of thing where if you're paying any attention, it's just inevitable. (1) Intel has been a mess for a while. Multiple canceled high-profile proj…

This is all true. You look at at a new PC and compare to a 10 year old one and its virtually the same, even in performance.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#665
post #630

Patrick Moorhead is a stock analyst for the chip industry. In Wall Street terms, he is aligned with Intel others who are shaking in their boots right now. He's not going to say that the M1 is great until Intel/NVidia/etc. allow him to. These pundits know which side of his bread is buttered. He knows that his clients were caught off-guard by the M1 announcement. He needs to give his clients enough time to sell their I…

I agree in general, but is this really true? > the legacy chip makers have a business model that doesn't work It seems like this implicitly assumes that everyone switching to Apple silicon is a possibility. But it doesn't seem likely that all the android users are going to switch to iphones or that all the windows/linux users are going to switch to macs. This is hugely embarrassing for Intel and Qualcomm in particula…

Not sure. There are clearly some problems with the x86-64 ISA. If the world switches to ARM in the coming decade, that leaves Intel in a perilous position: no advantage in IP and no advantage in fabrication.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

M1 is still just a tablet SoC in a laptop form factor. We don't know what the efficiency will look like after you add all the I/O you need for a real desktop, we don't know how the memory subsystem will deal with 4 more cores that are just as fast. What's the point of having fast cores if you cannot feed them? We don't know how lower yields for bigger chips on the newest nodes will affect their costs. People act like…

M1 is still just a tablet SoC in a laptop form factor. That wouldn't be good enough for production hardware. The developer units had a previous iPad’s A12 SoC in an enclosure for developers to test things on. For example, the A series doesn't support virtualization because that's not required on a phone or tablet. But the M1 supports this and other laptop/desktop features. Even the A14 only has 4 cores compared to th…

Another example - M1s can't do SMT, no one is denying that they are good chips but there's a lot of catching up for them to do.

> And all of the M1 Macs have blazingly fast memory access. Remember, it's an SoC—the memory is on the same die as the CPUs, GPUs and they all have equal access to it. No bus to go across.

What does this even mean? Memory works at a certain voltage, clock speed, and has a capped rate at which it can transfer data if those are kept constant. For DDR4-3200 it's generally 3,200 MTs (megatransfers/sec).

What does every core has equal access to it mean? What does soldering SDRAM change in terms how many transfers/sec it can do? What do you mean there is no bus?

> The M1 already has features no "desktop" chip has, such as 8 instruction decoders.

What makes going wide a "desktop" class feature? Going wide isn't free, there is transistor cost associated. A M1 chip has 16 billion transistors for 8 cores. AMD's EPYC Rome has 39.54 billion transistors for 64 cores. That's 8 times as many cores. And that's including ~9 billion transistors just for the I/O die.

If you look at just the chiplets, AMD's 8 Core complexes take up only 3.9 billion transistors each. And these are 8 high performance cores with SMT, even removing GPU/NPU engines from M1, AMDs design clearly has a lower transistor cost.

> The Zen3 barely beats the M1

AMD was't trying to make an entry level laptop chip, so it's not good at being a entry level laptop chip? How do you think M1 would fare if we try to compare them on datacenter CPU metrics?

I understand why everyone is excited, but they aren't looking at the whole picture.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#667
post #630

Patrick Moorhead is a stock analyst for the chip industry. In Wall Street terms, he is aligned with Intel others who are shaking in their boots right now. He's not going to say that the M1 is great until Intel/NVidia/etc. allow him to. These pundits know which side of his bread is buttered. He knows that his clients were caught off-guard by the M1 announcement. He needs to give his clients enough time to sell their I…

I agree in general, but is this really true? > the legacy chip makers have a business model that doesn't work It seems like this implicitly assumes that everyone switching to Apple silicon is a possibility. But it doesn't seem likely that all the android users are going to switch to iphones or that all the windows/linux users are going to switch to macs. This is hugely embarrassing for Intel and Qualcomm in particula…

It proves the viability of ARM for desktops, laptops, and probably eventually servers too. Intel having been humiliated by this will loosen their grip on OEMs who will now be under pressure in the inevitable rush to produce appealing, performance-oriented ARM laptops, as the current market has basically been Chromebooks and some half-hearted Windows ARM tablets, all based on chips adapted from phones.

And of course there will also be the rush on the fab side to produce a non-Apple chip that's actually suitable for these machines, which will in turn have performance characteristics far more suited to server use than any previous ARM chip, enabling that market and feeding back a demand for larger and more performant server ARM chips and mainboards— and who knows, maybe even some kind of socket standard so they aren't soldered down like it is today.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#668
post #630

Patrick Moorhead is a stock analyst for the chip industry. In Wall Street terms, he is aligned with Intel others who are shaking in their boots right now. He's not going to say that the M1 is great until Intel/NVidia/etc. allow him to. These pundits know which side of his bread is buttered. He knows that his clients were caught off-guard by the M1 announcement. He needs to give his clients enough time to sell their I…

I agree in general, but is this really true? > the legacy chip makers have a business model that doesn't work It seems like this implicitly assumes that everyone switching to Apple silicon is a possibility. But it doesn't seem likely that all the android users are going to switch to iphones or that all the windows/linux users are going to switch to macs. This is hugely embarrassing for Intel and Qualcomm in particula…

No, it’s not true. Most people buy their computers because of the price, style, and easily observable features (not necessarily performance, certainly not the type of difference that only shows up in benchmarks). Hacker News commenters are far from your average PC buyer. I’m sure the M1 and future desktop Apple silicon will have an impact, but it’s far from a killing stroke. If people only cared about maximum performance, budget machines wouldn’t sell at all. In reality, they sell in much higher volumes than high end devices.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#669
post #315
post #297

The author is bashing another author for not doing measurements, yet himself declares that m1 beats all the other CPUs, without providing any measurements. With regards to the M1, I'm grateful for a good competition. As this will likely push premium laptop manufactures (Razer, Dell) towards ryzen CPUs, as opposed to using them in cheaper models. Loosening the grip that intel has on them. With Zen3 on mobile, giving a…

Yeah John Gruber has really become a shill over the last few years. His article reads like an Apple keynote transcript, everything is magical and amazing, a marvel and mindbogglingly great. No wonder they throw him so many exclusives ;) Yes M1 is great. But it's a closed system (no booting Linux or Windows at this time) and even under macOS you're having even less access to the system's internals than before. Also, A…

> Apple performs many tricks to get such long battery life

I always assumed this is why Apple doesn't allow actual third-party browsers on iOS.

Re: M1 Macs: Truth and Truthiness

#670
post #665
post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree in general, but is this really true? > the legacy chip makers have a business model that doesn't work It seems like this implicitly assumes that everyone switching to Apple silicon is a possibility. But it doesn't seem likely that all the android users are going to switch to iphones or that all the windows/linux users are going to switch to macs. This is hugely embarrassing for Intel and Qualcomm in particula…

Not sure. There are clearly some problems with the x86-64 ISA. If the world switches to ARM in the coming decade, that leaves Intel in a perilous position: no advantage in IP and no advantage in fabrication.

The world may want to switch to ARM but right now there aren't really any options to switch _to_ right? Beyond Apple I can't think of any chip manufacturers offering desktop ARM cpus...
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