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The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

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Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#661

Post by wegs »

sergeykish wrote: post #642
wegs wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this was anticipated by the architecture: * My USB webcams wouldn't show up in a different order each time I reboot. This works fine under Windows and Mac. * My monitor configuration wouldn't be hardcoded in my xorg config file, or swapped around manually with xrandr. I'd have a way to code up config options for whatever is plugged in, and if something unanticipated happens, it'd do something reasonable until I co…

You've described need for UUID but then discard it for disks, why? $ ls /dev/disk/by-uuid/ 266c945c-1c6d-40e7-b770-73864a5541fa $ cat /etc/fstab UUID=266c945c-1c6d-40e7-b770-73864a5541fa /

Mostly, because as of 2020, most things don't use UUIDs. See e.g.

1) https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/installation/insta...

2) man fdisk

3) man mkfs

And so on. The /dev/sd_ is primary, with UUIDs as kind of an afterthought

It ought to be the other way around, with UUIDs as the primary, proper, canonical name and interface, and a legacy backwards-compatibility layer for /dev/sd_ devices. It's even reflected in the directory structure. Yes, I CAN list disk "by-uuid," label, id, partuuid, or path, but those are special cases with sd_ as canonical.

It's kinda retrokludged in there. I never said USB/etc. didn't work. Just that it wasn't architected for it.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#662

Post by mattl »

bitwize wrote: post #444
WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #422

What looks like "typical Linux geeks being geeks" with this situation: 1) the old, mostly working thing is being abandoned in favor of 2) that new thing which doesn't work in so many cases it's laughable, even after 11 years. How many years was it between the concept of X and a working release at Palo Alto? Note that the new situation is so perfect for passing the buck from the windowing system to the compositors, an…

> What looks like "typical Linux geeks being geeks" with this situation: I call systems like this CADT-compliant after Jamie Zawinski's Cascade of Attention-Deficit Teenagers idea. Wayland is a system for which CADT-compliance (and maybe security) trumps nearly all other concerns. No surprise, the primary use case for Wayland is and was always GNOME -- the very system for which Zawinski coined CADT.

> Cascade of Attention-Deficit Teenagers

https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#663

Post by phone8675309 »

sergeykish wrote: post #638
phone8675309 wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nVidia is the overwhelming leader in GPUs that people care about, so if you don't mind excluding the majority then it sounds like a great direction. Hope it works out for you.

There is nothing Wayland can do about "nvidia's crappy drivers". GamingOnLinux stats — AMD GPU 40% and raising. https://www.gamingonlinux.com/index.php?module=statistics&vi...

40% is still less than the majority, and Wayland chose to break compatibility with X11 drivers, so they get to own half of this breakage

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#664

Post by the_why_of_y »

zepearl wrote: post #423
severino wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never got to fully understand Wayland's model, but if this means that something that previously was handled by the display server for everybody, and now every single desktop environment (or at least something like wlroots) has to solve it over and over again... how isn't this a step back?

I agree. On one hand I can understand the need to shrink code, focus on the core functionality etc..., but on the other hand X has e.g. "xset" and "xbindkeys" which can be used for all X-desktops (or "Window Managers" or however they're called). With wayland each single desktop environment has to re-implement all that functionality => looks like wasted effort to me - the modularity (from the point of view of function…

One of the innovations since the 1980s when X was designed are shared libraries, so you can have libweston and wlroots now https://github.com/swaywm/wlroots

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#665

Post by frank2 »

the_why_of_y wrote: post #664
zepearl wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. On one hand I can understand the need to shrink code, focus on the core functionality etc..., but on the other hand X has e.g. "xset" and "xbindkeys" which can be used for all X-desktops (or "Window Managers" or however they're called). With wayland each single desktop environment has to re-implement all that functionality => looks like wasted effort to me - the modularity (from the point of view of function…

One of the innovations since the 1980s when X was designed are shared libraries, so you can have libweston and wlroots now https://github.com/swaywm/wlroots

X11 used shared libraries since its beginning in the 1980s.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#666

Post by sergeykish »

badsectoracula wrote: post #660
sergeykish wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you imply X.Org sabotaged? Issues fixed, system is stable and only maintainer stops it? You should notify disillusioned people who still commit to the repo [1]. [1] https://github.com/freedesktop/xorg-xserver/graphs/commit-ac...

I do not imply anything. The fact is that there haven't been any release for two years yet there is work apparently being done. So why aren't release being made?

I would expect issues are not fixed, system is not stable.

> The primary development code repository can be found at:

> https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver

Quite a lot of issues.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#667

Post by pjmlp »

akvadrako wrote: post #646
pjmlp wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unix was really well-designed, Not really, it is just a pile of hacks on top of hacks, starting by everything is a file until one needs to use sockets.

Unix is what you get by usually applying the "worse is better" philosophy.

And having free source code available on tapes for universities, without which would never taken off.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#668

Post by sergeykish »

phone8675309 wrote: post #663
sergeykish wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing Wayland can do about "nvidia's crappy drivers". GamingOnLinux stats — AMD GPU 40% and raising. https://www.gamingonlinux.com/index.php?module=statistics&vi...

40% is still less than the majority, and Wayland chose to break compatibility with X11 drivers, so they get to own half of this breakage

I expect they do not target world domination.

Anyone who wants stable, performant GPU today can buy AMD. Future is here. That's Wayland target.

I live in the past — Intel GPU, X.Org, xmonad. I've thought to wait a few more years but I've checked Sway, it works. I'll check waymonad, maybe it works, maybe I'll make it work.

Wayland GNOME and KDE works with NVIDIA.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/wayland#Requirements

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#669

Post by phkahler »

krageon wrote: post #584
phkahler wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> pretty much everything that works on interaction between X clients fails hard It's supposed to fail hard. That isnt just a security hole in X, it's a total lack of security. The notion that any app should be able to monitor or manipulate any other app is archaic and wrong from a security perspective.

Maybe it's archaic and wrong to you. Maybe it's even a good idea to be able to configure this on a per-application basis. What isn't the case is that you get to know what is convenient and right in my workflow.

Fair point. I think not allowing by default and having some means to grant permission is a decent idea, but implementation has to be right so people dont develop a habit of allowing it every time they're asked.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#670

Post by emersion »

swiley wrote: post #622
emersion wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a wlroots developer, and I'm using an old Sandybridge mobile i5 CPU daily. So I'm pretty surprised about this. I'd be interested in a bug report if you were to try again.

I'll agree with this post. Wayland is not pleasant on my core i5 machine either. I should point out that the GPU it has is very weak, I don't know what it is but most 3d games are unplayable. X.org, Firefox, and Xterm all work very well on it though. As do other apps like gschem and openscad.

"Wayland" is just the protocol, can you give more details about your setup? For instance, GNOME is more heavyweight than say Sway (and gives a more feature-ful and eye-candy user experience in return).
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