The dystopian world of software engineering interviews • Hacker News Board

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#661

Post by sojournerc » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 5:22 PM UTC

inertiatic wrote: post #180

m0zg wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm bad at taking tests. I'm also bad at playing guitar when someone is looking or even when recording myself (and pretty good when playing without anyone looking). I get anxious and self-conscious and that gets in the way of good public performance. This does not translate to public speaking - I'm pretty good at that, and I'm not afraid of audiences of just about any size - my largest so far was ~1K people. I someho…

I'm the exact same in the guitar department, play a riff for 5 mins flawlessly, try to record it as a 10 second clip (or even try to put it on a looper), fuck up a couple notes in. I also interview badly frequently but not due to poor test performance but due to my demeanor in an inherently awkward situation.

As I perform more and more, I realize the hard part is getting out of my own way. I fumble and stutter playing something when I try to think about what I'm doing, trying too hard to make it good.

I'm at my best when my conscious mind doesn't really know what I'm doing, and I trust the musical muscle to do what I feel which produces more emotional, more compelling music

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#662

Post by hutzlibu » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 5:29 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #641

hutzlibu wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beware though, that he or she used a throwaway. Comments can be made by anyone, also a marketing company contracted by oracle who still want talent and have to shame competitors with better image. (but the comment did seem legit and it is obvious for posting that anonymous)

HN doesn't remotely begin to matter enough for companies to waste money on propaganda efforts .

Why do you think that?

There is lots of IT folks around posting or just lurking and it would be very cheap to do some postings on Agenda XY here and there. I doubt it does not get tried.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#663

Post by vsareto » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 5:30 PM UTC

tom_ wrote: post #631

vander_elst wrote: post #616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on man ` cut -d "," ` I like the question and how you think about the rabbit hole, but you need to sharpen your knife A LOT before being able to ask such questions, you need to be prepared for all the kinds of answers, which might be right even if you don't have a clue about what the candidate is talking about...

But that is exactly why you can't use cut in general for parsing CSVs - the usual CSV syntax includes quoted fields, in which commas don't separate the values. But cut only examines the input charwise: % echo 'a,"b,c",d' | cut -f 1-3 -d "," a,"b,c" I don't think there's a good solution to this using standard tools, but I'm sure there are various CSV packages available. (Which I've never used! - I'm just familiar with…

I think the interviewer-escape-hatch for that is to only have delimiter commas in the file (so cut will work in this situation), and withhold that information to see if the candidate asks about it. If they do ask, that's points in their favor.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#664

Post by ghaff » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 5:32 PM UTC

proximitysauce wrote: post #656

bitexploder wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We generally ask for two references and a warm introduction to each reference. We take it from there. We aim for more recent references. Doing it for all previous jobs is overkill and time consuming. The feedback is generally candid and useful. In some cases (limited work history) we only follow up on one reference. In others the best reference is also the current employer so that obviously can be tricky. The spirit…

I think it's important to understand that you're asking candidates to burn "social capital" by arranging those introductions. I've worked for pretty high end people (successful founders, ceos...). I'm not going to call in any favors from them for a job interview. Most senior people feel the same way. Don't ask your candidates to expend their own personal or social capital.

It feels like even a fairly benign implementation of interviewing references wouldn't scale very well. It's something I might impose on a couple of people I knew well once for a special opportunity but expecting them to repeatedly do this for a bunch of companies using this process seems unreasonable.

And as others have said, while I could provide references going back quite a few years, it definitely wouldn't be every job since high school--even every professional job.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#665

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

throwaway5283 wrote: post #212

paxys wrote: post #115

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Hah! Reminds me of https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768 . Cynical answer though — Google does not want people like you. They don't want to hire entrepreneurs or inventors. They want people who can churn out code when given specific instructions, and that is what their interview process optimizes for.

This is absolutely true. I work at Giant Search and Advertising Company, and joining was a huge mistake. I thought I would be working interesting technical problems with a high degree of autonomy — instead the work is extremely boring, and you get ahead by playing political games rather than by innovating. I’m one of the rare few here who managed to get through the interview without really preparing. Before joining,…

[deleted]

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#666

Post by ghaff » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 5:36 PM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #581

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The incredibly secure would tell you to take your process and shove it. I'm not sure to what degree "bright" and "secure" correlate. I suspect that they may do so eventually, but I think many bright young people are still insecure with respect to jobs and employment.

I’m very much enjoying interviews now that I’m secure :D it’s amazing how straightforward you can be if you don’t really need a job.

Heh. Someone was recruiting me a few weeks back. The company/position looked somewhat interesting but, as we talked, it turned out that what they were looking for wasn't quite my core skill set though I could probably have done it. At the end of the day, it was much easier just to say not a good match at this time so both of us could move on. If I were really looking for something, I suppose I would have felt the need to pitch myself more for the position and have them say no.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#667

Post by Aperocky » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 5:47 PM UTC

artsyca wrote: post #537

Aperocky wrote: post #486

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What? I interviewed at my current location wearing a cargo short and a tshirt. It’s a trillion dollar company and we’re not failing any time soon. Coding interviews aside, no dress requirement is one of the biggest plus and allow people to focus on the thing that matters. I have no idea where you come from that software engineering is helped by dressing up pressed shirts.

What else have you been doing the same way since the fourth grade?

Maintaining curiosity on new thing and technology.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#668

Post by crimsonalucard » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 5:54 PM UTC

ideal0227 wrote: post #655

crimsonalucard wrote: post #610

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Two things. The google interview process was not made to filter you out. It was made to guarantee that they will not make a mistake on hiring you. People with the capability to do those interview problems have a high chance of being good programmers. There are many people like you who can't do those problems but are still very good programmers. Google doesn't need to hire you, the whole interview process is optimized…

Thanks for educating me about BFS. I am major in computer science, and published paper in top conference. Tree traversal is trivial for me. So I guess I have decent CS background and knowledge? Writing bug free and perfect code is not equal to simply solve the problem. If you have prepared coding interviews (especially for new grad and internship), you should understand it is less about knowledge but more about pract…

A published paper in a top conference only happens through political connections in undergrad it is not a marker for your IQ which is what a company like google tests for.

The interview is not just about writing bug free code it is 100% about solving a problem you haven't seen before. Google specifically tells their interviewers to avoid "canned" problems that are already all over the internet.

>If the interview is knowledge based or problem solving oriented, I am all for it. Sadly, it is not today in many places. And that is exactly why website like Leetcode exists.

The interview is about both. You are given a problem that they expect you have not seen before and you are expected to solve that problem using raw knowledge and problem solving skills.

Leetcode isn't about memorization. Leetcode is training data used to optimize your neural net to solve problems it hasn't seen before.

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#669

Post by jogjayr » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 5:58 PM UTC

karlkatzke wrote: post #332

bilekas wrote: post #241

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One thing to note about coding interviews, they're very simular to somone looking over your shoulder while you're working. Nobody can perform well like that.. One great colleague who I wish I was in the interview for, simple started thinking out loud. Everything he was thinking, he said out loud, and of course, the team loved it. Because thats all it's about. If its not over a video chat/submission, comment your code…

So I had an interview that was like that, but I wasn’t given enough information. I was asked to implement the “inverse square law in code” ... and I explained to the interviewer who was two years out of college (I looked up all of the interviewers on linkedin, so I had a good idea of their experience and areas of expertise) that my first step as someone who hadn’t been in an academic environment or exposed to this ki…

> “No, you should know this.”

As an active interviewer at Google, I think that person shouldn't be allowed to conduct any more interviews without proper training. That's inexcusable.

What even happened next, did you just end the interview right there? Stare at each other awkwardly till time ran out? How did they expect to learn more about your skills if you weren't doing any coding or talking?

Re: The dystopian world of software engineering interviews

#670

Post by gniv » Sat, Feb 15, 2020, 6:14 PM UTC

fogetti wrote: post #356

whack wrote: post #301

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> we are collectively living in an illusion of whacked up expectations. Yes, it's super hard to hire good people, but most of the time it's because "good enough" isn't good enough anymore, and while we may think our company is a 9 and we deserve 9s, we are probably more of a 4 based on what people are actually working on. You're essentially implying that companies like FAANG can get by just fine, even if they hired "…

I think FAANG has too much money, so they try to solve all problems with money, which could otherwise be solved with better planning, allocating more time, changing the mindset and/or better understanding the problem at hand. That might explain why they pay hire salaries than the rest of the industry. I don't think that there is necessarily a causal relationship between the salaries and the competence, but that line…

> be solved with better planning, allocating more time, changing the mindset and/or better understanding the problem at hand

You're describing a good manager, who costs a lot of money, even more than a good SWE.