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An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

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Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shorter and fewer Ph.D.s (aka constrain the supply the way the AMA does) would actually solve all the problems mentioned here. Might even kickstart stalled scientific and technological development.

How do you figure the latter? Redirecting resources elsewhere?

One of the possible reasons for lack of progress; too many people. If you look at something like a consensus algorithm, many work much more slowly with "too many participants."

Or it could be an insufficiently high IQ test at present; dumb people get in the way and cause problems.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#662
post #60

I think the author buried the lede here. My biggest takeaway from the article is that you'd have to be an absolute sucker to work in academia given how poorly you'll be treated. Each person that puts up with this only makes the problem worse, giving at least tacit approval to the status quo. If folks were to start opting out of academia in larger numbers for jobs in private industry, schools would be forced to improv…

> My biggest takeaway from the article is that you'd have to be an absolute sucker to work in academia The first thing I thought as well. When you read all these horror stories about burned out phd students, why is anyone doing this? If a woman in STEM wants to combine family and work (or a man or anyone else really) there are many jobs in the industry that are actually relatively 9-5, and pay really well. I don't un…

> I don't understand academia at all. It sounds like a combination of paperwork, flying to conferences, endless networking, publishing papers for publishing's sake. It's like a Kafka novel.

As an academic, your description is rather accurate regarding the research part of academia (you left out the teaching).

Some of us put up with all that because we love the science, the sense of discovery, of doing what no one has done before, advancing human knowledge, the feeling of working for public good and not for some profit-driven corporation. Flexible hours is also a plus (although also a double-edged sword).

(I confess I do like the "flying to conferences" part as well, though).

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s because people in many countries don’t have access to clean water. There’s no reason to pressure women in developed countries to breastfeed for 2 years. Unless you’d like to push them out of the workforce.

No, it's because there are a lot of scientific results correlating it to all kinds of better health outcomes both for the child and the mother, also in developed countries. Whether this benefit is worth the great burden two years of breastfeeding imposes on women is, of course, debatable, and each woman should choose and not be questioned on their decision (as people often do). But sweeping the issue under the rug by…

Not when you adjust for education and SES and nothing beyond one year. Which is great news, because as you say, it can be burdensome.

(Not a knock on extended breastfeeding itself. I think mother and baby should breastfeed as long as it’s working for both of them - well into the toddler+ years if that’s what mom wants. But claiming unproven benefits is actively harmful to women.)

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of jobs in the software industry have flexible hours.

Or remote work, in which case you don't have to leave your apartment at all if you don't feel like it.

As student I used to say that I will never accept a job that is not remote work. But they are harder to find than expected

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a matter of being disallowed, it's a matter of convenience and comfort. If a woman is working a factory or a large department store, she may have to pump in the restroom. That's not exactly a comfortable or convenient place for it. Far different from an office which offers a quiet room with a comfortable chair or couch for her use. Beyond that, there's also the matter of storage. Breastmilk is unpasteurized…

There are a lot of things in life that aren't perfect, yet they're still solutions.

They are solutions, but would people choose them? This story is about what women are choosing to do with their lives. From what I gather, they’re not choosing the hard, inconvenient, uncomfortable way without a good reason.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does not sounds like IT jobs, it sounds like most jobs. In every sector, I'm sure you can find employers who are more flexible than others. I work at a software company and there are single parents leaving early or coming in late or both due to raising their kids. Consider finding a better employer.

Yes, I used to say that before I experienced it - but the system is built around workers that will work long continuous hours - you have to beg for the exception, and you take a pay hit - forget any thoughts of promotion - the glass ceiling women complain about. The attitude is oh yes we're being generous by letting you leave early - it shouldn't be that way, work should be planned around life.

While the plural of anecdote is not data, my director of engineering started as an individual contributor on my team. As a single mom, she has been promoted multiple times. She works two days from home and leaves early to beat traffic so she can do kid stuff. She is also very good at each role she has had.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#667
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized. To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women.…

Not sure I follow. Given two mothers (gonna leave aside some of the baggage here, fathers can do child care, not all women/people are straight or fit in the conventional framework): Amanda wants to have kids but also wants to be a Supreme Court litigator. Jane wants kids and wants to stay at home to raise them. Why is giving Amanda the option hurting Jane’s ability to chose her preferred outcome? Should we force Aman…

If we use a tax to pay for the child care, then depending upon how the tax is structured it could be that an increase tax on Jane (either directly, or on the partner in the relationship who is working) can make it so that it makes more economical sense for Jane to work and use the subsidized child care. Just like today the opposite often happens (child care costs so much that the lower earning parent can have a hard time justify having a job). I think it is possible to find a balance but we haven't managed to do so yet and I wouldn't bet on it anytime soon.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are talking about leaving work to give birth and recover from it? That indeed is required, but I'm talking about leaving work to _raise_ the children that one gives birth to. I'm saying that it's only women who leave work to _raise_ their children and that _that_ is sexist. There is no reason to abandon your career to raise your children, there is no reason that this is never done by men (who can do it just as…

> that women are expected to leave their careers _permanently_ to raise their children even though they only need at most a few months or so to recover after giving birth (a year is an absolute extreme), and that men are not expected to do the same 1) This is a conversation concerning those in a relationship as to who will be raising the child (if it's not a shared effort) 2) I know a few guys that are stay at home d…

Yes, some (many? few? I don't know) women do have that kind of expectation from a man. More to the point, there are societal norms that nurture those expectations in women and in men themselves. There's no question to my mind that this is exactly the same kind of sexism that is keeping women from having successful careers in STEM academia (and elsewhere).

Like I say in another comment, sexism harms men too.

It really is not a matter of men-vs-women, here. My understanding is that these are traditional ideas about manhood and womanhood, that were useful in the past because they helped ensure societal stability and perhaps a sensible use of limited resources. But, in today's world, especially in the Western world, where the majority of men and women don't e.g. have to work the fields or do the washing by hand, these traditional ways of seeing each other only help to restrict our options. In the end, most women and most men have loved ones in the other sex (wives, sisters, mothers, daughters, husbands, sons, brothers and fathers) and it just doesn't make sense to stick to archaic ideas that want us to be somehow adversaries. Most women want the men they love to do well in their life and vice-versa. So why not work to maximise each other's options, rather than restrict them? We can work together rather than against each other to achieve our full potential, as individuals and as family units.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it biology that only women are expected to leave work to care for children? I don't follow. Is there some biological reason why men are not expected to do the same? Do you mean something else by the "it" in "It seems to be just plain old biology"?

The article literally talks about this. The problem is unborn children, i.e. pregnancy. That's solely a burden for the mother, who will not be able to travel and keep up with strenuous work schedules for most of the duration of their pregnancy.

Pregnancy lasts nine months and for most of that period a woman can very well travel and keep up with work. Then recovery after birth takes a couple of months (lochia, marked by bleeding, lasts a month and a half). So that's less than a yaer overall, let's say a whole year to cover cases that have a more difficult delivery than usual (although there are still outliers that will suffer problems for many years after).

So a year off work, at most. Let's say three if you want to have three children (most women in the Western world today will have one or two).

How does that square up with giving up an entire career, that lasts considerably longer than three years?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#670

The author is missing the forest for the trees. She argues that a specific kind of sexism (harrassment) is not sufficient to explain why so many women are forced out of their careers in STEM academia. She argues that the real reason is that those women want to start a family and they can't do both at once. She herself is considering leaving academia to start a family (she wants to have two or three children). Yet she…

>Yet she never for a moment stops to wonder why it is that a woman like her has to make a choice between family and career, why that is a choice that so many women have to make and why it is a choice that so few men have to make. She literally spends 25%+ of the post explaining the fertility wall that does not affect men.

The fertility wall explains why women need to take time off to gestate and give birth before they are in their 40's. It does not begin to explain why womeen in their 20s are expected to give up a career that lasts considerably longer than either gestation or giving birth and recovering from it.

That's what the author is failing to discuss. Why do women need to give up their career to _raise_ children when the business of _having_ children takes a tiny portion of the duration of a career in STEM academia.

Do you have an explanation for that?

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