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Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

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Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My take on this is that she was trying to ruffle feathers, and she succeeded. I suspect her firing took into account that intent. Putting myself in the shoes of whoever decided, I can only think that factor would have weighed heavily against her. She might be naive enough to believe that this was actually protected concerted activity, but I don't think so. I'm not sure I think firing her was the right play, but I als…

The article quotes a law professor who says that it probably is protected activity, so I'm not sure "naive" is the correct word.

The analogy Prof. Dubal uses is not apt. They seem to believe that the extension was some kind of public notice board where anybody could post something, but that is not what it is. Since they did not have sufficient context, I would be disinclined to trust their judgment on this issue.

Also, FWIW, this may provide some interesting reading: https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/are-employers-required-to-...

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want that metaphor, going to court with a union is more like having one lawyer trying to get the best deal for 5 of his clients, even if one is innocent and the other 4 guilty, he would decide instead for a plea deal where all 5 do minimal time. 4 get better off, 1 is fucked and can't really do anything about it.

> having one lawyer trying to get the best deal for 5 of his clients, even if one is innocent and the other 4 guilty That's stretching the analogy too far, and adding biasing details to force the impression that unions are bad. Here's another analogy: Going to work without a union is like going to war without any military organization. If your enemy is well-organized, how smart is it for you and your fellow soldiers…

re: lawyer one. I am not biased and I am not against unions, but I live in a country where as some others mentioned, they are basically political tools for some small group (or in public unions, actual political parties). I am pro-union, but I believe that outliers or top-performers will be fucked in a union world. (And low performers will be safer). I make about 7-8 times the average salary for my country, and 5 times the average salary for a senior software developer. This is due to my years of developing connections and the fact I deliver quickly and well. From my experience with unions, I might even be at the top of the scale in their 'grades' but I would never be able to get to the multipliers I am making if I didn't have the power to negotiate my contracts myself. Sure it sucks for others that don't have this possibility, but I won't sacrifice myself for that.

That is perhaps a better analogy indeed, but still lacks a bit since each 'soldier' has different goals and capabilities, which may be curtained by if they organise. And the 'enemy' still requires you to cooperate with them at the end, to come to their side and help them achieve their goals, which again, would probably mean you would be fucked if you were fighting alongside, and midway decided that the 'enemy' was actually right and you wanted to work with them.

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#663
post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with Drakonka that it's dystopian when being moderately assertive talking about labor rights is viewed as a reason to fire someone. Especially when these kinds of notifications have a history of being used to tamely spread information before ("Happy Birthday Sundar!" popping up when any employee visited google.com). Reminds me more of the rules for posting on a bulletin board. Edit: "Happy Birthday Sundar!" d…

The issue isn't about discussing labor rights it's about abusing security tools for political purposes. A bulletin board is not a good analogy. A bulletin board is non-invasive. This tool creates pop-ups on people's browsers. Normally, these notifications are security or privacy warnings so displaying personal messages here gives it a false sense of authority. Furthermore, it looks like she used an e-push to do this:…

I agree with you that the issue doesn't have to be labor rights. I agree that the emergency rapid push seems like a slight misuse.

I'm questioning the double standard of being able to use the tool to display company wide messages ("Happy Birthday Sundar!"). Why was the "Happy Birthday Sundar!" poster not held equally accountable? Seems like any topic management doesn't like is political speech.

Edit: The "Happy Birthday Sundar!" message didn't happen.

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#664
post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I would never implement that kind of notification like she had done, not without written approval from my boss and maybe my bosses' boss to cover my ass. If this is something that goes through your mind, the organization you are at is broken and probably dangerously hostile.

No, this is just the truth of working at BigCorp. Most engineers can pretend office politics doesn't exist because they're working in primarily nonpolitical roles. But office politics exists, for any office. And unionization is political.

Acting from the motivation of CYA as you described it is not a part of a healthy mode of operation in any relationship, personal or professional.

An approach that has some form of checks, however formal (for purposes of quality and accountability), is entirely reasonable, and especially where there is a notable risk of exploitation (historical or likely potential.)

But I've worked full-time essentially non-stop for a quarter century in a wide range of organizations (in an employee context: 3-person small business up through several thousand people enterprises), and default distrust is a red flag regardless.

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#665
post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yes, it's company policy, but this is more like running into a meeting and then interrupting it so you can start reciting NLRB policy than it is posting a flyer. True, but it seems kind of shady to come down harder on an employee based on the content of the interruption, and that content notifying of the right to organize. Like, imagine there's a documentation page for http cookies. Consider two scenarios: A) Rogue…

I'm sympathetic to this. But the fact that it's a security tool being misused is what I think made for the very harsh reaction. Two scenarios: A) Rogue employee messages a bunch of internal email lists about having the right to organize B) Rogue employee configures a security extension to issue a popup saying "Happy Birthday Sundar!" every time an employee visits google.com on June 10. I am confident that A) wouldn't…

I could see something like (B) happening because Google used to have a lot of April Fools jokes. But it would go through code review, so the team would know about it. Doing it through hacking would be something else.

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> having one lawyer trying to get the best deal for 5 of his clients, even if one is innocent and the other 4 guilty That's stretching the analogy too far, and adding biasing details to force the impression that unions are bad. Here's another analogy: Going to work without a union is like going to war without any military organization. If your enemy is well-organized, how smart is it for you and your fellow soldiers…

re: lawyer one. I am not biased and I am not against unions, but I live in a country where as some others mentioned, they are basically political tools for some small group (or in public unions, actual political parties). I am pro-union, but I believe that outliers or top-performers will be fucked in a union world. (And low performers will be safer). I make about 7-8 times the average salary for my country, and 5 tim…

I understand and agree with many of those points. I think that if software engineers unionize, there should be a lot of innovation and experimentation in union structure and practices to address them.

The other thing is that I see a lot of criticism of some practice or other of some particular union inflated into a critique of unionization in general. I object to that because 1) it often echos management's anti-union propaganda talking points, and 2) it denies the possibly to innovate in the area of worker organization. I think there's a lot of value for workers in worker organization, even for high performers, and I think that needs to be the focus.

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really know enough to agree or disagree with you. She claims she's in a role to make judgment calls on adding content - and that this was reinforced by her previous stellar performance reviews, which made her confident in her judgment - but I don't personally have enough info to know if that's the truth. She very well could be stretching the truth that maybe every other addition she's made was under the direc…

Googlers are encouraged---well, in the past, have been encouraged---to consider themselves capable of making judgement calls like this one. That having been said, this would still be considered an unusual call to have made. But had I been on the receiving end of this message, I suspect I'd have found it annoying unless she remembered to suppress it after first display---if she had, I wouldn't have been bothered by it…

Part of being encouraged to exercise personal judgment is being responsible enough to participate in the consequences. Judgment with no/few personal consequences is reserved for children and legislators.

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She was doing activism, not work. She knew damn well that she could not push without a code review, so she basically threw two colleagues under the bus (they were reprimanded). She will get work somewhere else, but, to me, it does not look good to be fired for abusing internal security tooling, with the huge responsibility that security engineers have. Burning bridges and making a stink about it was her own choice, a…

She did not abuse any sort of security tooling. She was working on a application designed to serve notices both security and legal to Google users. She added this notice because as part of being legally compliant with the law people have to be informed of their right to unionize. The rest of your argument is massive projection because she did nothing of the sort. She added a notice which linked to internal Google doc…

> She was working on a application designed to serve notices both security and legal to Google users. She added this notice because as part of being legally compliant with the law people have to be informed of their right to unionize.

That's a valid point, though it takes me a lot of energy to hold this view even for seconds. But I see where you are coming from now.

It does assume / hinges on: adding such legal and security notices without approval of higher-ups is the way security and legal compliance at Google is done. That would look bad on Google, because it is bad security practice (using a rapid code push meant for solving critical bugs, for something that could go live next week), bad culture practice (why not ask input from more experienced Googlers?), and bad legal practice (a legal notice is worth at least one meeting with someone hired to do / deal with law issues).

> She added this notice because as part of being legally compliant with the law people have to be informed of their right to unionize.

I do not believe this for a single moment. This was her "temporarily change the Linux background"-moment, not a "oh, let's be proactive and do legal requirements for Googlers who can't Google 'right to unionize'.". That is the one you use to cover your ass and turn this into a political hot potato. But then still, if true, you go to your supervisor and you can bring this up. You don't emergency push a legal notice.

> Acting like this was some severe security violation is out of line.

I think that what she did would be grounds for insta-firing a security engineer, even in very employee-friendly countries in the EU. It betrays trust of all colleagues (the message would be no different from a carefully vetted company policy, so she basically spoofed her colleagues). She played an activist prank using internal security tooling: I laugh when I think of the confused angry emails upper management must have been sending the Privacy Policy Notifier team lead, they got trolled hard. I also think all this backlash from the diversity crowd is something that Google has deserved: They are either hypocritical (they never meant it, and are now stuck babysitting 20+ genders), or supporting Damore's argument that the ideological echo chamber within Google does not really work, and in business terms is a very ugly beast (if this was an action movie, they fired the scientist for pointing out that the volcano is about to explode).

So for severity I would not go as far as a good wry laugh about this. The mask is coming off. I can understand not wanting to build government murder machines and stick to ads, or not wanting to be part of the deeply ingrained rapey culture and this being the reason to protest and organize. But an internal security tool that your colleagues trust you to run on their machines is just a very bad "murder baby hitler" way to go about it. Murders your trust, processes, and protocols. Some big nasty lawyers are going to push the "disrupt the workplace"-argument hard, Google is going to be even more careful to fire blue-haired employees, and the argument that Google is intentionally targeting on anything protected by law will make even less sense.

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't her thoughts it was company policy, or to be specific it's required by law that this notice to be posted in the workplace. It's was her personal judgment that it should be posted in a chrome add-on rather than only by poster like is typical in most workplaces. But assuming her job was to maintain an add-on that informs employees of company policy, and assuming her job typically lets her act with personal ju…

> It wasn't her thoughts it was company policy, or to be specific it's required by law that this notice to be posted in the workplace. Unless she was asked to do it by management, it was her thoughts. As much as the title makes this seem like David v Goliath this is really just employer v disgruntled former employee. No matter your thoughts on "its required by law... Blah blah blah" it's not up to her to enforce the…

Engineers at Google are not drones. They do not exist to only do exactly what their boss asks. If engineers did do that, they'd never get promoted there. Google's management can't have it both ways.

Re: Engineer says Google fired her for notifying co-workers of right to organize

#670
post #483
post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn't she be an employee at 21? 21 is three years into legal adulthood. The idea of being an intern at 21 is degrading. They're adults. Treat them like adults, not children.

Maybe this is news to you, but engineers typically have to go to college and get a degree before they can work as a software engineer. That typically takes 4 years, starting at age 18, which is when most people graduate high school. A 21-year-old working as an "engineer" at a company is typically an intern. So to answer your inane question, she wouldn't be an employee because she's not old enough to have graduated co…

Getting a degree is largely unnecessary in the present time, and a substantial volume of people skip that step, especially in large companies like Google that are constantly buying others.
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