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Richard M. Stallman resigns

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Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#661

It's unfortunate that scarlet letter offences are still alive and well in today's culture. Normally, when someone engages in behavior seen as offensive, the procedure is to pressure the person to apologize and mend his ways, and only get rid of him if he refuses to do so. But when a "scarlet letter" offence is involved, we jump straight to the punishment phase, removing the person outright with no judicial process. T…

I'm normally 100% on board with condemning this Malthusian environment that has sprung up in the last couple years, but I don't believe that Richard Stallman is a complete victim in this scenario. He has a long history of using forums meant for technology discussion to promote borderline (and that's generous) social opinions, and of being openly hostile to people who don't tow his line. In this instance he ridiculous…

>He has a long history of using forums meant for technology discussion to promote borderline (and that's generous) social opinions,

How often does he bring it up and how often is it in response to someone else saying something that is technically wrong?

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#662

It's unfortunate that scarlet letter offences are still alive and well in today's culture. Normally, when someone engages in behavior seen as offensive, the procedure is to pressure the person to apologize and mend his ways, and only get rid of him if he refuses to do so. But when a "scarlet letter" offence is involved, we jump straight to the punishment phase, removing the person outright with no judicial process. T…

Yup. There are many things I disagree with Stallman on, but I still can’t get behind mob mentality accusations and indictments. But in this day and age people want instant retribution for wrongs as well as perceived wrongs and are perfectly willing to bypass due process. Just fire them! Now! Someone said they said something bad!

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#663
post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we please stop excusing bad behavior with some form of "oh because autism"? It's an insult to the many, many neuro-atypical people who don't say shitty, stupid things online, who don't act creepy around women, who don't have a sign on their MIT office that says "Knight for Justice (Also: Hot Ladies)", who don't have a gross mattress in their office where they encourage people to lie topless, who don't try to pres…

> Can we please stop excusing bad behavior with some form of "oh because autism"? It's an insult to the many, many neuro-atypical people who don't say shitty, stupid things online. No it's not an insult to anyone. It's an attemoted explanation of why some neuro-atypical people behave in atypical fashion.

As a neuro-typical, it is an insult on me. Being autistic doesn't mean you are allowed to be an asshole.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm normally 100% on board with condemning this Malthusian environment that has sprung up in the last couple years, but I don't believe that Richard Stallman is a complete victim in this scenario. He has a long history of using forums meant for technology discussion to promote borderline (and that's generous) social opinions, and of being openly hostile to people who don't tow his line. In this instance he ridiculous…

"His previous comments about minors on his personal blog, which I don't even want to dignify with a description (you can do your own search), leads me to wonder what other connections than money he had with Epstein." Speculation, which would not be allowed in a court of law, is unfortunately a perfectly acceptable character assassination methodology. And this kind of tar-and-feathering is precisely why we need offici…

> Speculation, which would not be allowed in a court of law,

Prosecution: "We think he knew this person was subject to coercion and we say this because X, Y, Z".

Defence: "We think he did not know this person was subject to coercion and we say this because we interpret X, Y, and Z differently."

These involve speculation about the mental state of the accused.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#665
People seem to be saying a variety of things about RMS: He's a genius, so let him be. He doesn't understand interpersonal communication. He didn't say the things people thought he said. People are too quick to judge. And so forth.

I was there, about 20 years ago, when he sent e-mail urging all free-software advocates to protest a bill under consideration in the US Congress. I asked him if he had read the bill. "No," he said, "I don't surf the Web." I saw that as a huge cop-out; how could someone claim any moral or leadership authority when he called for protests and a letter-writing campaign on a subject he didn't know about first hand?

It's certainly true that RMS has been remarkably consistent over the 30 years or so in which I've interacted with him -- starting when I was a reporter for the MIT student newspaper, and then maintained the Emacs FAQ, and then wrote for Linux Journal. (No, not GNU/Linux Journal. Sheesh.) He's an extremist. He's a purist. He indeed doesn't get the nuances of interpersonal communication.

But you know what? You can't both lead an organization and be tone deaf to people. You can't be a public figure, demanding respect, and then show such disrespect to others. You can't expect that people will pay attention to what you say when you have so little respect for what they say.

Stallman has long been difficult, obstinate, and rude to people in general -- and a general drag on the cause of open-source (or "free") software. But I had no idea that he was known to be so terrible to women.

But even if he had treated women well -- which doesn't seem to be the case -- it's pretty hard to imagine anyone, anywhere defending Jeffrey Epstein in any way, shape, or form. The guy was terrible, did horrible things, abused a huge number of women, and amassed wealth and power in the most disgusting ways possible. To defend Epstein, or the people who were associated with him, is unacceptable.

Again: You want to defend Epstein in your own personal life? Go for it; you won't have many friends or colleagues afterwards, but that's up to you. But if you do it as the public face of a well-known activist organization? You can't possibly stick around there.

Good riddance.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#666
post #647

I'm so relieved to find that at least on hacker news people can still evaluate this situation with reason. Out there it's a witch hunt and Stallman is now a witch. RMS is a great man but sadly has difficulties communicating with the wider world. This has been true of many great minds throughout history. It's sad to see it happen to one of my own heroes but I believe history will do him justice if we continue to fight…

It's disappointing to read many of the comments on HN today. As we know, rms is a very dear person to most of the Computer Science and programmer community. Through the years, he's said many shocking things. We've often disagreed with him. He's been extremely stubborn. At some points it's been comical. Yet we still see him as a technology treasure, and we should keep this in mind before judging him harshly based on a…

He was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island.

That is what he was defending. The intellectual quibbles about this and that he was bringing up are irrelevant when faced with the above fact.

That isn't about political correctness, it isn't a "witch hunt". RMS did something incredibly inappropriate in an incredibly inappropriate place and was fired. He deserved it.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#667
post #635

It's unfortunate that scarlet letter offences are still alive and well in today's culture. Normally, when someone engages in behavior seen as offensive, the procedure is to pressure the person to apologize and mend his ways, and only get rid of him if he refuses to do so. But when a "scarlet letter" offence is involved, we jump straight to the punishment phase, removing the person outright with no judicial process. T…

Who jumped straight to the punishment phase? What punishment was doled out? "Removed outright" from what? MIT? RMS chose to step down himself. That was his decision. Even if you think MIT told him to, that would ultimately be MIT's decision, not the work of some "mob". Furthermore, stepping down from MIT is not destruction you're playing it up as being. People have done similar (and of course, worse!) things and, aft…

>Even if you think MIT told him to, that would ultimately be MIT's decision, not the work of some "mob".

The mob pressured MIT and the FSF to remove him from his positions. It's ultimately their decision, sure, in the same way that it's ultimately up to a local business owner whether they purchase a "protection plan" from the nice salesmen with the baseball bats.

>RMS doesn't need us to feel bad for him. He's still free & healthy. If you're worried about kangaroo courts and injustice, there's plenty to focus on somewhere where people's lives and livelihoods are actually at stake...

You could just easily say "Hong Kong doesn't have it that bad, they have food and shelter. Focus on conditions that are actually bad, like starving child soldiers in Africa."

This just seems like deflection. Conditions being worse elsewhere doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss the issues that are more local to us.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#668
post #647

I'm so relieved to find that at least on hacker news people can still evaluate this situation with reason. Out there it's a witch hunt and Stallman is now a witch. RMS is a great man but sadly has difficulties communicating with the wider world. This has been true of many great minds throughout history. It's sad to see it happen to one of my own heroes but I believe history will do him justice if we continue to fight…

It's disappointing to read many of the comments on HN today. As we know, rms is a very dear person to most of the Computer Science and programmer community. Through the years, he's said many shocking things. We've often disagreed with him. He's been extremely stubborn. At some points it's been comical. Yet we still see him as a technology treasure, and we should keep this in mind before judging him harshly based on a…

I don't see it as a witch hunt so much as an intervention. He has done great things in the free software movement, history will thank him for it, but he shouldn't be working as a front-man while launching foot-seeking missiles.

I have a soft spot for RMS like other people do but I don't want to donate to the FSF while he is talking this way as its president.

Maybe he is also a victim of his success. Free software has come so far in the past few decades that it's not as important as other social issues in computing at this point in time.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#669

I'm so relieved to find that at least on hacker news people can still evaluate this situation with reason. Out there it's a witch hunt and Stallman is now a witch. RMS is a great man but sadly has difficulties communicating with the wider world. This has been true of many great minds throughout history. It's sad to see it happen to one of my own heroes but I believe history will do him justice if we continue to fight…

Perhaps the President of the FSF, an organization which has a huge influence on the technical community, should be someone who doesn't have difficulty communicating with the wider world. Strong communication skills being important to that sort of job.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#670

I'm so relieved to find that at least on hacker news people can still evaluate this situation with reason. Out there it's a witch hunt and Stallman is now a witch. RMS is a great man but sadly has difficulties communicating with the wider world. This has been true of many great minds throughout history. It's sad to see it happen to one of my own heroes but I believe history will do him justice if we continue to fight…

I feel out of loop here. Can someone fill me in as to what happened.

Basically this:

https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/17/20870050/richard-stallman...

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