James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google • Hacker News Board

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#661

Post by dotnetisnotdead » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 10:35 PM UTC

stephenr wrote: post #507

nilkn wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on whether the incompetent male engineers are just as incompetent as the incompetent female engineers. For instance, she mentioned a female developer who couldn't write SQL queries. Are the incompetent male developers at that same level of incompetence? Of course taking this into account cannot completely eliminate selection bias, and the sample size either way is probably too small to be all that meaningf…

> she mentioned a female developer who couldn't write SQL queries I'd wager a third of the nodejs "developer community" could be described that way. The key thing is was she hired to write sql queries?

Yes, that is part of her job, but it wasn't covered in the interview process from what I've been told.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#662

Post by dotnetisnotdead » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 10:37 PM UTC

saas_co_de wrote: post #481

praestigiare wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You claim that there is a pattern of bad diversity hires, but your anecdotes are just as easily explained by confirmation bias: You see an incompetent male engineer, and you write him off as an idiot and forget him. You see an incompetent woman, and she becomes evidence that there is a problem with diversity programs. You remember evidence that supports your narrative. Obviously my statement is not evidence either. I…

This can definitely be the case. There are lots of sh--ty white male programmers working in the industry. I have met plenty of white men who have masters level CS education, have worked for Google and other top name companies, and can't produce a line of useful working code to save their lives. The reasons why corporations frequently hire people who don't actually produce anything are varied and complex, but it happe…

>If someone is incompetent and also happens to be from a minority group then everyone starts complaining about how they are a "diversity hire" but with incompetent white males they just shrug and go "that's the way it is." In other words, it is so common with white males that no one even notices.

You could be right this is definitely a possibility. I did not intend to suggest that all white male programmers are awesome, certainly not the case.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#663

Post by dotnetisnotdead » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 10:42 PM UTC

nautilus12 wrote: post #427

Idontknowmyuser wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate the fact that you need to state "you're a mixed race woman in tech.". I'm not blaming you, I'm blaming the outrage culture instilled in big part by a bigoted academic clique.

Stating this fact is the only way this comment could possibly be noticed. I wouldnt be surprised if lieing to this extent is the only way that these anecdotes could ever see the light of day. Though it doesnt change the validity of the points made

I've been accused of lying about it before to get attention. Realistically I only state it as a precaution because lately some of the things I've posted on other venues get an immediate comment calling me a Nazi and I want to avoid all the explanation and just get to discussing the issues.

I would prefer it if all of us could leave gender/race/religion at the door and talk but that's now the how the internet works now.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#664

Post by MBCook » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 10:43 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #308

MBCook wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly. But it doesn’t seem like he has a case to me. He’s basically trying to get a new protected class created to protect actions that clearly constituted creating a hostile work space based on long established precedent. Whatever you think of him it seems like a REALLY big hurdle. And that’s assuming no ‘mandatory binding arbitration’ issues from his work contract. Even if he wins this could take a very long ti…

> He’s basically trying to get a new protected class created No, he's not; none of race or sex discrimination (both under federal and state law), nor political coercion (under California state law) are new protections. > to protect actions that clearly constituted creating a hostile work space based on long established precedent. That would be a problem in a direct action suit over his firing, but what he has actuall…

I don’t think he has a chance of proving he’s being discriminated against because he’s a man (way too many guys at google) or white (same issue).

I think his only hope is persecution for his ‘belief’, which isn’t a religion and this would be a new protection (IANAL, unsurprisingly).

I didn’t see the class action bit. I wonder if he can even find enough people to join him to be certified as a class.

He has a giant ‘don’t hire me’ target on him now (weather you think just or not)... will people want to throw their lot in with him and risk the same label?

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#665

Post by dotnetisnotdead » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 10:44 PM UTC

seemuch wrote: post #654

dotnetisnotdead wrote: post #296

Honestly, this whole thing is just ugly. I read what he wrote. It was (mostly) ugly but contained a lot of truth. Before you downvote/call me a Nazi, I'm a mixed race woman in tech. I definitely see people hired just because of their minority status. I also see people hired who are minorities but also great at their job. It's not a binary pattern. But those who are hired just because they are a POC or female, yet are…

> Before you downvote/call me a Nazi, I'm a mixed race woman in tech. Why would it matter that you are "a mixed race woman in tech"? Your comment should be judged only by its content, not by its author's race or gender, right?

Of course, that's how it used to be, but posting this without my profile picture next to it would bring out accusations of being sexist/nazi etc if I didn't clarify.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#666

Post by Clarencewhorley » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 10:45 PM UTC

Going to be great when the Department of Labor comes in and had some conservations with Google and their HR team members.

It's all fun and games until the Labor department starts dropping fines that go up every day till it's fixed and they get execs on the record. Have fun

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#667

Post by scruple » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 10:45 PM UTC

lurr wrote: post #626

ironjunkie wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

we are all arguing about a 10 word quotes because that is what the media have chosen to focus on. If you read the full memo, you understand what he aims at and I don't think it is poorly written.

Gee, for a group that seems to complain about suppression of alternative thoughts you sure you do love to accuse everyone who disagrees with you of not having read the memo.

So you've concluded then that ironjunkie is an "alt-right" "member" because of _this_ comment thread? Yikes...

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#668

Post by dotnetisnotdead » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 10:46 PM UTC

bertil wrote: post #490

dotnetisnotdead wrote: post #296

Honestly, this whole thing is just ugly. I read what he wrote. It was (mostly) ugly but contained a lot of truth. Before you downvote/call me a Nazi, I'm a mixed race woman in tech. I definitely see people hired just because of their minority status. I also see people hired who are minorities but also great at their job. It's not a binary pattern. But those who are hired just because they are a POC or female, yet are…

Stupid question, just to get a sense of the context of your testimony: are you working for Google or a similarly prestigious organisation? I can certainly expect “a "Software Engineer" who can't write a SQL statement” in some of the company I worked for a decade ago but I’d be confused to see those at Google. I saw one at Facebook (middle-aged white male) but he left the company after ten days and anyone’s reaction w…

No, I don't want to name my company for obvious reasons but it's not Google or Facebook, not in the same league. It's an organization with around 400 engineers in it total, so not a small shop, but not a giant household name either.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#669

Post by Clarencewhorley » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 10:47 PM UTC

Enjoy your Labor Department investigation with fines that go up every day of noncompliance.

I'm sure the Trump admin will be totally understanding to the tweets from hiring managers that admitted to breaking labor laws.

I'm sure there are no emails that also break the law. Should be totally fine

LOL

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#670

Post by on_and_off » Mon, Jan 08, 2018, 10:48 PM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #510

vowelless wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true. If the memo wasn't enough, him immediately going to right wing YouTubers like Stefan Molyneux, Jordan Peterson, Mike cernovich, Joe Rogan, Dave Rubin, Steven Crowder, etc. is suspicious. [1] Generally I wouldn't have minded if he went to right wing outlets, as long as he had also gone to left wing outlets. I was willing to listen to his reasoning. But it became clear after the memo came out that he didn…

Just like Trump seems stuck in some kind of info-loop with Fox News, Damore seemed to get most of his memo ideas from those youtubers in the first place. He's got a footnote in it about how complaints about gay rights are just an attempt by Marxists to undermine capitalism for goodness sake! In an internal corporate communication about how to better deal with diversity. The mind boggles.

I wondered what you were ranting about so I skimmed Damore's memo :

>Communism promised to be both morally and economically superior to capitalism, but every attempt became morally corrupt and an economic failure. As it became clear that the working class of the liberal democracies wasn’t going to overthrow their “capitalist oppressors,” the Marxist intellectuals transitioned from class warfare to gender and race politics. The core oppressor-oppressed dynamics remained, but now the oppressor is the “white, straight, cis-gendered patriarchy.”

Hard to do not roll my eyes when reading this. Even though I feel that there is a fringe a the feminist movement for which being a white male is a crime, this is just a fringe and I don't think it has anything to do with socialism other than these are 2 things that Damore hates.