Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

661–670 of 1001 posts

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#661

Post by Aunche »

eagsalazar2 wrote: post #555

Google really blew it. Just look at this conversation, normally happy and polite HN is barely restraining itself only because of fear of being hell banned and this is a tiny watered down version of the outrage they have unleashed nation wide. Had they just (as they should ethically have done) privately let the guy know "hey uh, independent of whether we agree with you, can you please cool it because this is USA, Bay…

Honestly, I think they made the correct business decision. Even in this thread, those who think the author should be rightfully fired are the ones who use more hostile language, and his firing is meant to placate them.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#662

Post by gopz »

tunesmith wrote: post #123

People can't seem to summarize his argument without getting much of it grossly wrong, because his manifesto was a haphazard collection of good points, bad points, good arguments, lousy arguments, misrepresentations of others' views, and unstated implications. A perfect recipe for people to argue past each other about it. It's worth remembering that one of his conclusions was to end or replace gender-based diversity p…

I would disagree. While he obviously sees the diversity programs as misguided, he stops short of calling for an end to them. To quote:

> Have an open and honest discussion about the costs and benefits of our diversity programs.

I understand that discussions within a business are different than talking with friends around the kitchen table, but I still think that you should go as far as you possibly can to have open discussions about sensitive topics like this. Of course you aren't going to open a dialogue about the benefits of white power, but there is still a lot of ground to cover between that and what people are doing this weekend. I think that the original article fits into that realm of what is acceptable to at least talk about, regardless of whether you disagree or not.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#663

Post by kamaal »

puranjay wrote: post #574
jorgemf wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If gender-based diversity programs are responsible for qualified women getting jobs that they otherwise wouldn't have gotten due to bias, then the lack of that program means those women wouldn't have gotten those jobs. This is a double sword thing. With the program you might hire more qualified women, but also more less qualified women and you might prevent of hiring more qualified men. Because you have to hire wom…

So in my country, we have our own version of affirmative action called caste-based reservations. Basically, if you belong to a certain caste, there are seats reserved for you in every government institution (schools, universities) and public sector jobs. One of the smartest people I know belongs to one of these castes. She is brilliant at her job but constantly worries whether she got in because of her brains or beca…

>>There is STILL a serious need for reservations and affirmative action in my country, but man does it screw with people.

I come from the same country.

Reservation policy has denied hordes and hordes of exceptionally smart, hardworking and merit people their rightful chance of doing good in life. It continues to. This has been one of the key reasons for mass exodus of these people to foreign lands. The damage is irreversible. Those people are lost for ever. And worst, they do so well outside India that more and more smart people are incentivized to leave the country for the better.

The damage to the Indian economy and the STEM ecosystem in India in general is incalculable.

Also by and large, at least from the past few decades(of economic boom and social progress) these reservation policies have no meaning at all.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#664

Post by dublinclontarf »

vl wrote: post #610
RealityNow wrote: post #290

It's incredibly ironic that a company that apparently cares about diversity enough to have a "Vice President for Diversity" fired an employee for presenting an opposing viewpoint - to their diversity policy of all things. Further evidence that Google and the other large institutions don't actually give a rat's ass about "diversity". Diversity has absolutely nothing to do with diversity of thought, and is only concern…

>Further evidence that Google and the other large institutions don't actually give a rat's ass about "diversity". There is a market force pushing software companies into leftist positions (since influential demographics in the industry are strongly pro-left; also this creates positive feedback loop). In this context Google’s behavior is rational, and this guy tried to fight it with reason and argument (I was laughing…

> There is a market force pushing software companies into leftist positions

Yes, if you oppose or even voice disagreement you lose your job.

I expect Googles behaviour in this instance was illegal.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#665

Post by dustinmoris »

If anything this #googlememo has proven, then that even if someone asks for an open debate and dares to ask the wrong questions, then he or she gets shut down to silence, shamed, defaced and hated. This is a dangerous development of our world right now. People who want to ask questions, think for themselves and challenge ideas, willing to admit mistakes and be open to thaught better in an open conversation will not stop to think this way when they get shut down and receive the aggression they currently get. This is causing a huge division in society and will lead to future violence if we do not stop this BS. The current extreme left is not only alienating the far right but everyone from centre left to right.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#666

Post by hyperdunc »

RealityNow wrote: post #290

It's incredibly ironic that a company that apparently cares about diversity enough to have a "Vice President for Diversity" fired an employee for presenting an opposing viewpoint - to their diversity policy of all things. Further evidence that Google and the other large institutions don't actually give a rat's ass about "diversity". Diversity has absolutely nothing to do with diversity of thought, and is only concern…

That video was 21 years ago but is more relevant than ever.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#667

Post by dmode »

dustinmoris wrote: post #665

If anything this #googlememo has proven, then that even if someone asks for an open debate and dares to ask the wrong questions, then he or she gets shut down to silence, shamed, defaced and hated. This is a dangerous development of our world right now. People who want to ask questions, think for themselves and challenge ideas, willing to admit mistakes and be open to thaught better in an open conversation will not s…

Oh please. Are far right and right organizations bastions of free speech ? How many churches and religious organizations are writing memos on gay rights or abortion rights ? Zero.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#668

Post by tunesmith »

ThomPete wrote: post #658
tunesmith wrote: post #123

People can't seem to summarize his argument without getting much of it grossly wrong, because his manifesto was a haphazard collection of good points, bad points, good arguments, lousy arguments, misrepresentations of others' views, and unstated implications. A perfect recipe for people to argue past each other about it. It's worth remembering that one of his conclusions was to end or replace gender-based diversity p…

Gender based diversity programs are hurting more than they are helping because they are confusing the role of gender diversity with the role of talent diversity. These programs are most likely not responsible for qualified women getting jobs and even if they are they are also responsible for qualified men not getting the jobs so nothing is really gained. The idea of qualification is something that is misunderstood fa…

Sure, if you define diversity as having nothing to do with gender, then of course you don't need women to have diversity.

And if you define corporate responsibility as doing only what is needed to put effective people in chairs, then there is no need for diversity programs to meet corporate responsibility (at least, assuming sufficient talent).

But your entire comment misses the phenomenon of biases having affected women their entire lives, from what hobbies they were steered towards, to their experiences during education, to their interviewing process, to their working environments after having jobs. These are all part of what gender diversity programs are trying to combat.

And honestly, I'd say that this statement right here:

> These programs are most likely not responsible for qualified women getting jobs and even if they are they are also responsible for qualified men not getting the jobs so nothing is really gained.

is more of a really effective example of the actual problem, and an illustration of why gender diversity programs are needed, than an effective counterpoint against them.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#669

Post by ucho »

Waterluvian wrote: post #101

I believe that equal opportunity among all persons is manifest. But I think the manner in which we encourage/enforce/promote it, especially in the workplace, demands debate. We must be able to disagree with the methods without any question of our belief of its purpose. The most disgusted I've ever felt at a workplace was when my boss, prior to me interviewing someone, said, "and she gets an extra point because she's…

> My job is not to balance an arbitrary math equation that x% of engineers are supposed to be women

It really sound like Goodhart's law. It no longer matters that corporations wanted to remove bias from hiring process and access mostly untapped pool of talents. Now it is important how well they are doing it, measured by single % value.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#670

Post by briantakita »

dustinmoris wrote: post #665

If anything this #googlememo has proven, then that even if someone asks for an open debate and dares to ask the wrong questions, then he or she gets shut down to silence, shamed, defaced and hated. This is a dangerous development of our world right now. People who want to ask questions, think for themselves and challenge ideas, willing to admit mistakes and be open to thaught better in an open conversation will not s…

Couple this with Google's policy to censor (demonetize & shadow ban) Conservatives on Youtube & in the search results, & we have some disturbing patterns.
Post reply on HN