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Out of all major energy sources, nuclear is the safest

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Re: Out of all major energy sources, nuclear is the safest

#661
post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK has about 200 warheads. The US has almost 7,000. The US has never used commercial power reactors to produce plutonium, because they simply aren't well-suited for the purpose.

>never used commercial power reactors to produce plutonium That's not true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Valley_Demonstration_Proj...

That was essentially a demonstration plant. Note that it only ran for six years, only produced 1,926 kg of plutonium over its entire lifespan, and was shut down because producing plutonium from spent fuel from commercial power reactors proved to be uneconomic.

2000 kg of plutonium is a rounding error, given that well over 1 million kg of plutonium have been produced since WWII.

Re: Out of all major energy sources, nuclear is the safest

#662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> wanted them for making nuclear bombs This was definitely a big part, but there's a lot that goes into it. Things like enrichment plants. The proportions of 235 vs 238 is substantially different in a bomb vs power plant. This is how we can tell what the Iranians are doing. So using big uranium plants is an excuse to make a lot of 235 and 239Pu. But just because the past was focused on war efforts, doesn't mean the f…

By design. People will oppose/support whatever they are told to as a general rule. if facts mattered, we would never of had a majority of people supporting the dropping of white phosphorus on the kids of Iraq (at the time) It wasnt that long ago people were being told wind and solar "would never be green" due to the manufacturing costs. But none of that changes the basic question. how would you balance the over desig…

> People will oppose/support whatever they are told to as a general rule.

I would argue that this prevents total human progress though. But we won't get into that because it is a huge discussion.

Again, I'm only in a related field, so take my answers with a grain of salt (pun intended). I also don't have the answers to regulations. That is an extremely complicated topic. But I can bring up problems that I'm aware of.

I also don't know how to speed up the bureaucracy. I'm a scientist, not a politician. We have some reactors in the US that were built in The most important thing I think that needs to be changed is that there needs to be a smoother path from research reactors to commercial reactors. I know a major problem is that no one will insure new reactors. There is this idea that if it hasn't been done commercially then it is unproven. I'm sure part of this is fear and part is bureaucracy. Unfortunately we always have to take a leap at some point. We can't just wait for China to build reactors and say "Oh, well it works there, so it is proven." China wouldn't be building them if they weren't confident in the designs.

I am also in favor of smaller reactors. Many of these newer generation reactors can be created quite small. Their outputs are lower than the large reactors, but you gain a significant level of safety. This is on top of the benefits from new generation reactors (less waste, significantly higher efficiency, and passive meltdown mitigation solutions). I think a way to encourage the use of smaller reactors is to reduce the max pay for cleanup in event of disaster. Currently plant owners must cover the first $12b (which is significantly more expensive than the average cleanup cost in the US). If you have smaller reactors they literally cannot contaminate as much.

> NYT article

Here we're running into the problem where things are cheaper when they are mass produced. When you don't build reactors for quite some time you have to reinvent processes. Now I will also say that the AP1000 is a gen III+ reactor (and has passive protection), but the Watts-Bar is gen II. Also remember that the first gen III was built in 1985 (commissioned in 1980). We've been slow to implement new technology in this field. The average of tech is around 20 years since invention to mass production, we're nowhere near that. This may be just personal frustration because I work in an area where two industries are extremely slow to implement progressive designs, space and nuclear.

Why I, and many others, think nuclear is essential for the future (you can find a lot about this in the most recent Paris talks): It is the only significant energy source that can provide constant power (and a lot of it). Wind and solar do not operate continuously, and are highly dependent upon environmental conditions. Hydro and geothermal also don't have these limitations. We currently don't have the battery storage technology to utilize a power system based upon only wind, solar, hydro, and geo thermal. Adding nuclear to this suite of technologies helps fill that gap, while being extremely environmentally friendly. The waste isn't nearly the problem that the public thinks it is, mainly because there isn't much total waste.

Re: Out of all major energy sources, nuclear is the safest

#663
post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And at the core of all this we have the issue that radiation is a silent killer. We can't smell it, we can't see it, we can't feel it. This amps up the fear element greatly." As well it should. Dangerous things that you cannot detect with any of your human senses are rightly to be feared. This behavior is well-preserved in humans for a reason.

Gas you use to cook with doesn't smell either. They add stuff to it so u can smell it. It is just as silently deadly without these additives.

What do you plan on adding to radioactively-contaminated materials so that people can see, or hear, or smell, or taste it?

Re: Out of all major energy sources, nuclear is the safest

#664

Not shown in the graph: Hydroelectric, which conjures up images of beautiful dams, rather than the hundreds of thousands of people who die at once when it fails.

Since I specifically highlighted the failure of Banqiao, and could give you Vajont and ... an Indian dam disaster of about 5,000 souls: what hydropower represents is a systemic risk, but not a long-tailed one.

The worst disasters, in 1975 (which is to say, exceptionally deindustrialised) China, and in India, the deaths were amplified greatly by inadequate preparation, planning, communications, and response.

Hubris has played a tremendous role in numerous dam failures (the above, Teton Dam, Johnstown). Which ... is pretty much amplified if you look to nuclear power.

Plus that long tail.

And there's the fact that there simply aren't many good natural hydro sites left, which means that the upside potential for creating additional risks is small. A decidely mixed blessing, if you call it that, but so it is.

Re: Out of all major energy sources, nuclear is the safest

#665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A very expensive battery made from a material we likely don't have enough of to scale for the world.

It's not impossible that someone could make a breakthrough in Flywheel Energy Storage for domestic use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage

Modelling energy densities and costs tends to suggest that's not a viable option.

Flywheel energy storage is useful as a substitute for spinning reserve (that is, the inertial mass of extand thermal generation turbines), but other than serving to dampen grid fluctuations, it's not good for more than a few minutes', perhaps at the outside a few hours', storage.

Re: Out of all major energy sources, nuclear is the safest

#666

I've been writing about, thinking about, and exploring lithospheric energy extraction for the better part of 20 years. I studied operations research during college in the hopes of working on India's nuclear supply chain. The west choked us out of Uranium and Plutonium, similar to how the British choked us out of Rice during the Bengal Famine of 1943. http://engineersf.com/people-against-nuclear-energy/ http://enginee…

NB: That content might be interesting ... but it's not publicly readable.

You might consider writing for (or publishing to) a venue which makes its works generally available.

Re: Out of all major energy sources, nuclear is the safest

#669
post #13

I believe the politicization of nuclear energy (the resulting lack of investment & innovation) will go down as one of the major blunders in human history. We'd be in a far, far better situation with greenhouse gasses if we (as a human race) had continued to invest in nuclear energy. There would have been mishaps along the way, but at a much smaller scale than we're experiencing now with deaths from air pollution and…

This is a debate we have all the time, here in France, where we chose nuclear energy as main source of energy for several decades. Nowadays, everybody but lobbyists (because for those reasons, nuclear industry is strong, here) seems to agree renewable is the way to go (but we're far to be able to replace nuclear with renewable), mainly because: * we don't know what to do with nuclear wastes, and we start to have a lo…

Why do you need renewable when there is practically unlimited nuclear fuel available.

> * we don't know what to do with nuclear wastes, and we start to have a lot

Nuclear waste is nuclear fuel. Different types of reactors can use that 'waste' and produce energy. Some reactor types produce far less, easier to deal with 'waste'. Much of that waste again can be used for different application.

The Nuclear waste issue is one of the most successful fear mongering campaigns ever.

The necessary science is done, early version of the technology were developed and are proven to work.

The problem is that no more work is put in developing and improving nuclear power but renewable energy gets money for research and subsidies like crazy. Coal also gets subsidies in many places.

> * every now and then, you have to dismantle old nuclear plants, and it appears the cost is totally exuberant

This is again manly a problem because of the lack of improvement over time. Different types of reacts would make this far easier. Sadly however we are still using the type of reactors designed for submarines.

Re: Out of all major energy sources, nuclear is the safest

#670

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean "politicization"? Please saw the movie the China syndrome and then 3 mile island happened. Then people were very afraid. These were real possibilities. Does anyone want to live near a nuclear power plant? Do you? I sure as hell would not. How can you twist fear of a disaster in "politicization"? You are also looking thru the lens of our current situation. Very little was being discussed about the ris…

> Please saw the movie the China syndrome and then 3 mile island happened. Yeah, I'm surprised by how little attention this gets. A significant accident occurred that wasn't supposed to, and subsequent investigations showed that there were significant lapses, including from regulators. People can't be experts in nuclear plant design, construct, regulation, inspections, etc., so they need to be able to rely on the aut…

It is a unreasonable reaction because the amount of damage compared to the reaction was totally out of proportion.

Compare it to the damage of coal and it would not even show statistically.

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