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Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

raymyers.org

651–660 of 862 posts

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#651
post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48891496

But even the dates they’re pointing to as evidence of fuzzing in that post pre-date Andrew Kelley’s accusation that they weren’t fuzzing. When it gets to the point of having to click HN links to other HN posts which link to a reply in a thread on Mastodon which is splitting hairs over dates that are still prior to the accusation, you’ve lost me. At best it seems like a more accurate outcome would be to update the ori…

I am struggling to even understand what are they trying to achieve? Or do they need a dozens of lessons on basic PR. Especially this is coming from VP of community.

As of this moment, even with all the new evidence being provided on Bluesky / mastodon, it doesn't amount to anything.

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say the flagship Zig project is TigerBeetle, not Bun.

TigerBeetle has a unique static memory allocation strategy at launch time. It’s a strategy that sidesteps a lot of memory management issues but only works for very specific use cases. Their success with this strategy isn’t portable to most other projects. I think they really need more traditional flagship projects that generalize to typical memory management use cases. The way the conversation keeps coming back to Ti…

Do they really not have any kind of sub-block dynamic allocator?

Does the program handle character data? It is indeed a rare server app which never handles strings.

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with this, and I've been spending time thinking about it because some of my friends had a similar conversation. The friction itself does not add value. The time spent thinking on the problem does. Friction should be minimized beyond the absolute bare minimum. Programming is a discipline where your workstation is already streamlined, and it is easy to forget where the friction is. Programming is done in a w…

>Programming is done in a world of pure though, in a sense, so most of the friction already lives in your head It seems that way, but that's not actually true. A fully greased-up brain would produce just incoherent nonsense decoupled from reality, because it would lack all constraints that would allow it to judge the value of an idea (i.e. how possible and useful it would be to implement in the real world). The frict…

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Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#654
post #22
post #3

Did we read the same Anthropic and Andrew Kelly's posts? Anthropic is not in the programming language market; their post about rewriting Bun in Rust is full of technical details that led to improving the end product for their users. Zig's response is a sour opinion piece full of personal attacks. For context, I'm using Codex and have no interest in either Zig or Rust, so just observing this drama from the sidelines.

Yeah I don't understand these myopic takes. Jarred's post about Bun-Zig-Rust post was technical and polite. Andrew's post in response was anything but that.

IMO if Jarred wasn't literally working for Anthropic and using their tools to do the rewrite, the whole thing would've been much more well received. Imagine if he'd used Sol to do it (while working for Anthropic – impossible of course), or GLM 5.2, etc.

Instead, since he does work for Anthropic, it just looks like a big marketing gimmick that was going to be done whether it was the right thing to do or not.

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#655
if I had to pick a side, I would pick Andrew but I don't think his side matters as much. IMO, it doesn't matter the technical reason why Jared ported Bun, it's his project, his wanting to do so is enough. I think the issue is that Jared turned it into a technical subtle reason of why "Zig is bad" without meaning to, and Andrew goes on the defense.

All that said, the coolest thing is that Jared did so, I don't care if it came out a bit worse with Rust, the interesting thing is here is what can be done with AI/LLM/Agents today. Yes, it might be worse, but on a reasonable enough timeline, it will get better. Folks get upset about these things. I did AOC in 2024 with LLM, my goal was not to top the leaderboard, but to see how good LOCAL LLMs could keep up. I did it with Qwen2.5-Coder-32B locally, and solved about 50%. Folks were often upset when I shared that, called it cheating, etc, even tho I often started about 8hrs after the competition due to timezone. It was so good, I suspected the cloud models would probably solve 75-80% and I concluded after my experiment that in 2025, LLM can solve it 100%. I didn't bother to try and the models were an order or magnitude better locally.

No matter the take on AI, they are very capable tools and we are only beginning to figure out how they can be used. I don't think we should stop, surely it's frightening on what that would mean if it can really "takeoff". This fight is multi layered, Zig vs Rust, Writing good code vs bad code, having good development standard vs not, being honest and transparent in technical disclosure, attacking Zig vs attacking Jared, AI good vs AI not, etc.

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#656
post #133

There's so much good stuff in this post. Can't help to think of a recent HN post about most AI-generated projects being abandoned within months. Why? Because value of a project is not in the code produced. It's in the amount of battle-testing that code has seen. Battle-tested, mature code > fresh rewrite. Existing Zig codebase has seen X amount of battle-testing. Rust rewrite: 0 (except -I'm assuming- passing test su…

> Now if that's further migrated to safe Rust, put into production & gathered feedback from lots of users, yes then you have something. Obviously they have to start somewhere if they want to get to safe rust with a considerable degree of battle testing. So they decided to start with just a transliteration and go from there. I think the Zig people are really just concerned that maybe Zig itself is a DOA language becau…

> I think the Zig people are really just concerned that maybe Zig itself is a DOA language because it doesn't offer enough over C for any serious use

I promise you, hand on heart, that literally no one on the Zig core team is wasting their time on thoughts like this.

> and their flagship project has now abandoned it.

Quoting Andrew:

> So, when the Anthropic aquisition finally happened, we at ZSF breathed a sigh of relief. When the donation silently stopped, our bank account was ready for it. When they neither canceled their monthly meeting with us, nor showed up, we were not surprised. The relationship was over.

I advise you to take this paragraph at face value. Again, I promise you that it is the truth.

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#657
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the mistake people are making currently is that they publicize stuff way too early. I.e. they make a prototype and then put that out there. Possibly with a full product page and all. People did this also before LLM, but the difference is that now the prototype is a fully functional product in the technical sense whereas before it was little more than a glorified Hello World. The human effort and calendar time…

> There's gonna be amazing products made with LLM You think more amazing than what was made without LLM?

There is going to be something that would not have existed without LLM because there wouldn't have been enough resources to create it before. Probably already is. Some of it will be amazing, although most of it probably not.

Example: Qobuz has no official Linux client, but there's https://qbz.lol/ which it seems to me is mostly vibecoded. It's not perfect, but it works pretty well and can do some fancy stuff like bit perfect DAC passthrough up to 192kHz/24bit.

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#658

I stand with Andrew. As someone who's been following Sumner's work closely for years, Kelley's accusations are very much true even if unkind. While the results are useful and cool, it a wankfluencer op from start to finish. I dare you to refute thus. And I say all this as someone who does agentic development 8hrs a day and someone who always pestered my team to opt for Rust and Deno instead of Node. Call a spade a sp…

i appreciate people saying it like it is. like linus lol i hate marketing pr speak when it comes to technical things. save that for the non technical customers

>like linus lol

I am not even sure if that is an insult.

Linus attack on "things" he dislike and call the person out on it. I don't believe Linus has ever call out on that person's other non related behaviour.

People keep using Linus here as if they are the same. They are not.

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#659
post #537
post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>When I read the post, my first thought was that I wouldn’t want to build things in Zig, because any technical decision I make, good or bad, might subject me to this kind of article from their BDFL. I think it is worse than that, the comments from people in threads about this suggest that this is an attitude that is creeping into the community. They may not be a majority, but if kinder souls decide to leave for a mor…

> They may not be a majority, but if kinder souls decide to leave for a more welcoming community Given the context, you mean Rust? Nothing against Rust folks but I wouldn't really call it more welcoming community.

Not GP, but I don't think a specific other community was being specified. It's more like some hypothetical other community whose primary characteristic is "not Zig".

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#660

I think like most people, I don’t have a problem with Andrew “calling a spade a spade,” even if I find his reasoning motivated. The bigger problem with the post is that it talks out of both ends of the mouth: it’s clearly meant as a personal attack, but also insists that it isn’t. When I read the post, my first thought was that I wouldn’t want to build things in Zig, because any technical decision I make, good or bad…

It might be helpful to read the latest revision of Andrew's post, which may address this concern for you. It received several revisions: https://github.com/andrewrk/andrewkelley.me/commits/master/p...

To me, this addendum makes it worse. Making small edits to a post like this makes it seem like you're doubling down on the original resentful points, especially with all the new justifications like "a trillion dollar company fired the first shot." Should have just deleted the blog post in its entirety imho.

>outstanding relationships with essentially everyone who openly uses Zig and talks about it publicly

Essentially everyone? more blogposts incoming?

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