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Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

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Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#651

Post by mike_hearn »

dpark wrote: post #542
autoexec wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like a good idea to start worrying about population long before it feels overcrowded and there's no room left on the trains. The issue isn't about how much open space there is to stuff people into, but about how many people an area can sustainably support. I'm not sure that 10 million is a good target to aim for, but you sure don't want to wait until your quality of life declines before you start making plan…

This seems like xenophobia masked as sustainability. The article indicates the referendum specifically would block immigrants but not, say, require free birth control for citizens. Interesting how narrow the target is if sustainability is the real goal.

Because the Swiss already have below replacement fertility, like everywhere else.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#652

Post by garte »

TrappedInCorner wrote: post #642
elektrontamer wrote: post #640

I always dreamt of migrating to some european country but seeing their suicidal policy of importing the worst from all over the world I've completely abandoned the idea. If this passes maybe there is some hope after all. Note: In case anyone wants to exclaim xenophobia or some other nonsense I'm also part of the "xenos". So no it's not xenophobic to want your country to be safe and prosperous.

I migrated with my parents at 3 years old to a neighboring EU country from another EU country. I agree with you strongly. As a migrant myself, I've become very critical about immigration in recent years. I've come to realize just how naive we europeans had become. Also just how penalized the idea of 'I want my country to maintain its culture, and I want my countrymen to look like me, smell like me and behave like me'…

This does not make sense. How can you differentiate between "good" migrants (apparently you yourself) and "bad" ones? Shouldn't you remove yourself because you're a migrant to increase the quality of life for the "natives"?

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#653

Post by FabCH »

jeffrallen wrote: post #607
FabCH wrote: post #126

One interesting point for me is that, IMHO, the propaganda on the „no“ side wad _abysmal_. The counter arguments are awful and they are presented awfully and not even in such high quantity as you would expect. I think it has a good chance of passing just because of that. And then political shitf***y will begin with „we don’t know how to turn this into law!“, which is not good for the basis of democracy…

> don't know how to turn this into law For one time, we can be grateful that the breakdown in direct democracy is gonna save us from an own goal.

I‘d rather they didn’t.

Undermining democracy itself is far more dangerous than whatever the impact of this referendum would be.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#654

Post by mike_hearn »

eqvinox wrote: post #489
like_any_other wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Because it is the place it is due to the conditions it has grown in. Take away the EU and Switzerland loses a significant part of their economic power, which is needed to sustain being the place it is. Just like Brexit.

[flagged]

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#655

Post by mike_hearn »

joxdosba wrote: post #582
rayiner wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> benefits from diverse cultures You mean "benefits from increased population," right? Because isn't the whole theory that people are the same? If so, you're just adding new people who are exactly the same as the existing people. So the only benefits come from having more people, or more people with certain skills (if you're filtering based on that).

[flagged]

Probably the same as Britain, which didn't suffer any economic damage from leaving the EU. Look at current trade ratios, GDP and other core stats vs neighbouring France. No difference.

The EU single market is apparently not as important as it's cracked up to be. The EU has sanctioned Switzerland before and it didn't matter. And the Swiss economy is very strong.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#656

Post by mike_hearn »

cromka wrote: post #493
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> execute a Swexit It wouldn’t be full Chexit. Just renegotiating and then rejecting the Schengen chapter. It would then be up to the EU to execute its Guillotine clause.

It's not Schengen. It's Free Movement, the core principle of EEA. You're not in EEA, you don't get free access to EU market. This would be catastrophic to Swiss economy.

It wasn't catastrophic to the British economy. Why would Switzerland be so different?

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#657

Post by joxdosba »

mike_hearn wrote: post #655
joxdosba wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Probably the same as Britain, which didn't suffer any economic damage from leaving the EU. Look at current trade ratios, GDP and other core stats vs neighbouring France. No difference. The EU single market is apparently not as important as it's cracked up to be. The EU has sanctioned Switzerland before and it didn't matter. And the Swiss economy is very strong.

One of those is an island, the other is a landlocked country that would quite literally starve to death if the EU decided to stop facilitating its access to international markets.

Switzerland exists purely at the mercy of the EU, it lacks the military capabilities to fight its way out to the sea and force an alternate reality.

The day Switzerland is able to conquer the north of Italy is the day they get to meaningfully negotiate with the EU.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#658

Post by TrappedInCorner »

garte wrote: post #652
TrappedInCorner wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I migrated with my parents at 3 years old to a neighboring EU country from another EU country. I agree with you strongly. As a migrant myself, I've become very critical about immigration in recent years. I've come to realize just how naive we europeans had become. Also just how penalized the idea of 'I want my country to maintain its culture, and I want my countrymen to look like me, smell like me and behave like me'…

This does not make sense. How can you differentiate between "good" migrants (apparently you yourself) and "bad" ones? Shouldn't you remove yourself because you're a migrant to increase the quality of life for the "natives"?

What constitutes a good migrant is up to the natives and the government of a country to decide. At the end of the day it doesnt matter what how good of a migrant I think I am. Any day the native population can turn very hostile and ram any migrant out of the country for any reason, be it crime record, ethnicity or something else.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#659

Post by kypro »

stouset wrote: post #286
kypro wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

I know people who have been victims from these far-right cultures being brought into my community. I have no tolerance for it. If you wish to call that xenophobia then so be it.

I'd highly recommend not visiting places like Afghanistan, not because the weather isn't nice, but because the people are awful. That's not just me saying that either, most Western governments will tell you not to visit either. Perhaps that's xenophobia, but either way I think it's correct.

According to PEW research 99% of Afghan's support Sharia Law. If you wish to present an argument for why this kind of cultural diversity is good for my community, then be my guest.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#660

Post by pjmlp »

hocuspocus wrote: post #638
pjmlp wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lost me on the reply.

You're throwing a lot of words that you don't understand nor have much relevance to the topic. Before bilateral agreements and the freedom of movement, not Schengen which was ratified much later and is completely irrelevant here, you needed a work permit , not a visa (lowercase), which anyway at CERN is the equivalent of a diplomatic permit given to all international and tax-exempt NGOs in Geneva/Switzerland. And of…

Getting a B permit in 2003 - 2004 was indeed hard enough experience that I ended up not staying there and refuse any job offer from Swiss companies to this day, regardless of the Swiss friendships I managed to make there.

My stay at CERN was temporary, and every single company where I had an interview clearly communicated to me that the paperwork to get a B permit instead of a Swiss national, or a foreigner with existing permit.

The need to switch permit status from the CERN diplomatic one into a B one, killed all conversations.

But lets be pedantic in the meaning of words instead, which I used for folks that never lived in Switzerland, that is what is relevant for the whole discussion about foreigners how experience Switzerland.

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