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The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

techtrenches.dev

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Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#651

Post by noisy_boy »

SlinkyOnStairs wrote: post #578
ekidd wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> E.g. Desktop Linux has always been kind of a joke. It hasn't gotten better, the problems are all still there. Desktop Linux has gotten better, though much of the improvement happened decades ago. I believe the first person to prematurely declare "the year of Linux on the desktop" was Dirk Hohndel in 1999: https://www.linux.com/news/23-years-terrible-linux-predictio... And speaking as someone who was running desktop…

> Desktop Linux has gotten better This is on me for being a bit too snarky. So yes, Desktop Linux has "gotten better". What it hasn't done is solved any of the systemic problems . The Open Source development quirks that created the shitshow of the 1999 is still here. Gnome is better but still suffers massively from mainstream features being declared stupid by the maintainers. (A power button that turns off the machin…

> The Open Source development quirks that created the shitshow of the 1999 is still here. Gnome is better but still suffers massively from mainstream features being declared stupid by the maintainers. (A power button that turns off the machine? Heretical.)

Gnome have been chopping off their own limbs because it reduces weight. All in the name of simplicity. I think they are not the best example of Open Source development.

KDE on the other hand had a hard fall once and basically recovered and invested long term in Plasma and that has paid off handsomely. Today, it is one desktop that I can say is closest to typical/standard desktop paradigms out of the box while retaining a high degree of flexibility for those who choose to customise it. I have been using KDE on Fedora for a while now and it has been basically solid.

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#652

Post by danmaz74 »

WalterBright wrote: post #609
danmaz74 wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Profit maximization" on its own would have left most people working 12+ hours a day 6 days a week, like it was very common in the 19th century. Luckily, it's never been the only force shaping our societies.

Working long hours was necessary in those days because productivity was much lower. Productivity has gone up so much people can work a lot less, and vast part of the population doesn't work at all.

Sure, productivity increase is hugely important, but if you only pursue profit maximization, then all the productivity increase goes into profits, which means that the general population doesn't increase their well being much if at all.

The 40hr work week didn't come by as a consequence of the profit maximization mentality, but as a consequence of hard fought battles by the workers/employees against that mentality. And when I say "hard fought" I mean in the literal sense, with at least 1,000 workers killed just in the US in those days. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_worker_deaths_in_Unite...

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#653

Post by striking »

WalterBright wrote: post #645
keeda wrote: post #641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's more accurate to say it is a process that has resulted in our high standard of living faster than other processes ... so far. There is no guarantee it will keep working for the majority of us going forward; as is becoming very clear all around the world, it also has downsides especially without checks and balances (which was predicted and observed in the past, which is why other processes were conceptual…

> I think it's more accurate to say it is a process that has resulted in our high standard of living faster than other processes... so far. Nobody has found a better process. Not even close. > As a trivial example It's not an example, it's a generalization. If you have a specific example, let's have a look at it! Have you ever wondered why communist countries never exported products? Also, if you want better products…

Which country experiencing communism at any point in time didn't export any products?

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#654

Post by sgt »

christofosho wrote: post #636
sgt wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You sound convincing, but it also reads very AI generated. A lot of people will stop reading half way.

... Yeah, that was my issue as well. I'm pretty sure it _is_ AI generated, and flagged it. Hopefully moderation can follow up.

The worst part is that several of the replies are probably AI generated too. So AI feeds AI, essentially. Is this going end forums like HN? I hope not.

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#655

Post by leptons »

Forgeties79 wrote: post #454
whywhywhywhy wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm the opposite I don't think I've read a single line of code I've shipped in over 6 months. I'd say it's far more tiring working that way though, you're breaking the satisfaction loop so you never really get the dopamine you used to get coding by hand, when you had a problem figuring it out was like solving a puzzle and you feel satisfaction at the end of it. With AI it feels most of my day is spent being a QA than…

>I'm the opposite I don't think I've read a single line of code I've shipped in over 6 months. This feels unfair to the people dealing with your (LLM’s) code. You don’t vet it at all? Or am I reading this wrong?

What makes you think the people dealing with the LLMs' code won't also be using LLMs to "deal with it"?

We're all now basically junior coders who have no idea what is in the codebase. Without LLMs, we won't be able to "deal" with any of it.

And I don't like it one bit.

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#656

Post by SquibblesRedux »

WalterBright wrote: post #600
spiorf wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the process has impeded even higher standard of living, because it misallocates resources from value generation to value appropriation. It's the extreme short term profit maximization that makes the economy a zero sum game. Otherwise it is not.

Do you really think the economy is zero sum? For example, who was Elon Musk's wealth transferred from? What do you think about all that money being invested into AI? Is that "extreme short term profit maximization"?

Musk got a huge leg up through the government, whether it be tax credits, incentives, side-stepping regulations, etc.

Bezos ran at a loss for so long it drove out actual and potential competitors.

Most (or all?) of the recent titans seem like each has his own company town. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town )

While their activities certainly fall in the realm of capitalism, and are just blips at longer time scales, it certainly feels like capitalism has been a bit under the weather for the past couple decades.

Regarding the money invested in AI, it all gives me "irrational exuberance" vibes.

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#657

Post by kmijyiyxfbklao »

WalterBright wrote: post #643
cowmix wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know who his wealth was transferred from, exactly. But I do know what he’s using it for now: as a gravitational force to unilaterally screw with public institutions and systems the rest of us depend on. Even if you agree with some of DOGE projects’s goals, the way it operated was wildly thoughtless about consequences beyond Musk’s personal wishes, and almost completely unaccountable. I’m honestly sick that my…

Musk's money came from creating a business that was worth a lot of money. I.e. he created his wealth. It was not transferred to him. The same goes for Bezos, Jobs, Gates, etc.

You can always trick investors. For example all the overpromising Musk has done over the years. Also when you are that famous you can sell lower quality goods for a higher price that people will buy because they are associated to you.

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#658

Post by WalterBright »

danmaz74 wrote: post #652
WalterBright wrote: post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working long hours was necessary in those days because productivity was much lower. Productivity has gone up so much people can work a lot less, and vast part of the population doesn't work at all.

Sure, productivity increase is hugely important, but if you only pursue profit maximization, then all the productivity increase goes into profits, which means that the general population doesn't increase their well being much if at all. The 40hr work week didn't come by as a consequence of the profit maximization mentality, but as a consequence of hard fought battles by the workers/employees against that mentality. A…

The Law of Supply and Demand is in play, and it means a company cannot dictate prices, wages, or working conditions in a free market economy. Rising productivity would have reduced the average work week regardless.

If you still aren't convinced, consider that the benefits package routinely offered to employees is worth around 40% of their pay.

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#659

Post by orthecreedence »

wolvesechoes wrote: post #315
cpursley wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another perspective: AI reduces brain effort in some domains which actually frees up brain juice that can be applied elsewhere.

Show us effects. What amazing breakthroughs were achieved thanks to brain juice freed by AI usage? What great works of art were created?

I've got one. I'm working on a cryptographic identity system in rust. One of the stricter iterations of it demanded creating a public version and private version of each type. The best way to accomplish this is a procedural macro. I don't know if you've written proc macros by hand in rust. I have, years ago, and it was somewhat torturous. I didn't want to relearn to do it all over again and spend what would have taken weeks (this is a side project) to gain a skill I will easily forget in a month or so. So I had an LLM code it for me. This is a really great use for it: it's not building any strong logic or doing any IO, it's simply writing code that generates other code, and is entirely verifiable and testable. It built it for me so I could spend those weeks working on higher level logic and p2p syncing protocol stuff that actually matters for the project.

I want to make it clear that I'm an LLM luddite. I mostly find the things distasteful and obnoxious. But there are definitely use-cases where they can do what's essentially bitch work and save a lot of time that would otherwise be a waste. It's a tool that can be used for specific things. I don't use them for everything.

Re: The West forgot how to make things, now it’s forgetting how to code

#660

Post by WalterBright »

striking wrote: post #653
WalterBright wrote: post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it's more accurate to say it is a process that has resulted in our high standard of living faster than other processes... so far. Nobody has found a better process. Not even close. > As a trivial example It's not an example, it's a generalization. If you have a specific example, let's have a look at it! Have you ever wondered why communist countries never exported products? Also, if you want better products…

Which country experiencing communism at any point in time didn't export any products?

The Soviet Union.

I don't recall ever seeing USSR products in stores, while plenty of manufactured goods from other countries were. (By products I meant manufactured products, not extracted resources like oil.)

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