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German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

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Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#651

Post by aaztehcy »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #605
TeMPOraL wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relying on open protocols to make all the difference is much more potent hopium than what GP wrote. Open protocols are kind of thing techies do when in cooperative mode, when industry isn't looking. But this is not this kind of problem - this is an economic, geopolitical problem. It's not about your local school moving off Windows to Linux, it's about the European corporations moving off Azure to some other cloud sol…

> It's not about your local school moving off Windows to Linux, it's about the European corporations moving off Azure to some other cloud solution offered by European corporations (do we even have any?). But why is it about that? Why isn't it about e.g. governments in Europe funding the development of Linux virtualization so that it's simple to buy some hardware, put it in the back office and have an interface to it…

[flagged]

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#652

Post by Hackbraten »

well_ackshually wrote: post #640
Hackbraten wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government services are going to drop support for the old scheme the minute they start supporting the new one.

Sure, that's why they stopped receiving paper letters for tax declarations once they setup Elster. Oh, wait, they didn't, my bad. You can still declare your taxes with good old paper. The only people that can't are self employed, and that's because they have a different set of obligations with higher demands

Telecoms shut down 3G once 4G had rolled out. TV networks killed DVB-T after DVB-T2 went live. Banks have abandoned FinTS for app-based 2FA.

Your comment compares a paper-based, non-digital process with a digital one. My criticism, however, is about abandoning an old digital (but vendor-neutral and inclusionary) process in favor of a new (and discriminatory) one.

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#653

Post by esbranson »

oytis wrote: post #558
sam_lowry_ wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an EU thing, overcomplicated an not sovereign: https://ec.europa.eu/digital-building-blocks/sites/spaces/EB...

Oh dear, web 3.0, blockchain. Do we get our sovereign monkey NFT too?

Verifiable credentials (VCs) are W3C standards and do not involve blockchains. Nor does Web 3.0.

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#654

Post by GoblinSlayer »

userbinator wrote: post #134

ISO7816 (smartcard) has existed for nearly 4 decades as the standard secure identity card, widely used by the banking industry among others. Very unintrusive and not hostile beyond needing to carry a little chip. If governments want a national ID, they could just give everyone one of those.

There are even projects of compartmentalized applications, where the same card is used for several independent purposes.

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#655

Post by Grisu_FTP »

pona-a wrote: post #415
viktorcode wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An app should have absolutely no way of knowing what kind of device it’s running on or what changes the user has made to the system. and therefore the app cannot give a reasonable guarantee that it is not running in an adversarial environment that actively tries to break the app's integrity. Thus, the app cannot be used as a verified ID with governmental level of trust.

If your app needs to be protected from harm, it cannot protect the user from said harm. I hoped software engineering culture was lucky to not have the same precepts that make lockpicking a crime in the real world, that we successfully make it into common knowledge that you can't grant any trust to the client, but it seems "trusted computing" is making some of us unlearn that lesson.

While this is HEAVILY off-topic i just have to say it.

"common knowledge that you can't grant any trust to the client" is the exact reason it annoys me so much when peoples solution to cheaters in video games is basically just "Rootkit my pc please"

As long as the anticheat is Client sided, you shouldnt put trust in it.

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#656

Post by sam_lowry_ »

esbranson wrote: post #653
oytis wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh dear, web 3.0, blockchain. Do we get our sovereign monkey NFT too?

Verifiable credentials (VCs) are W3C standards and do not involve blockchains. Nor does Web 3.0.

Tell this your parlamenentarian.

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#657

Post by klabb3 »

izacus wrote: post #648
klabb3 wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just have the Secure Enclave in the ID card and use NFC to communicate with it? Think about it, you literally have dozens of computers between you and the provider. Routers, middleboxes, load balancers, servers etc, all insecure or untrusted, but somehow my device needs to have their special rootkit and hardware DRM. A separate device that can be provisioned with ID is the least to ask. If the government does…

This is exactly what the ID cards I'm talking about are. You tap them to the phone or a desktop reader and it works. You just invented something that already exists. eIDAS just takes this one step further and gives you an option to not have to carry your card with you. But if you refuse to have an attested phone, then you pay those 20EUR to get the ID card (which you probably need for other uses as well) and move on…

> This is exactly what the ID cards I'm talking about are. You tap them to the phone or a desktop reader and it works. You just invented something that already exists.

Great, thanks for clarifying. Please be mindful not everyone are domain experts and we’re all (hopefully) trying to learn.

Now, do you know whether ID cards will work with the proposed German system for e2e online ID verification? My understanding from comments was that it doesn’t, and providers are free to require the app-based version.

In Sweden we have an app-based system now (BankID), and afaik there are no alternatives that work reliably. You have to buy an American phone every few years to participate in basic societal functions. However, the government is ”looking into” decoupling digital identity from (1) banks and (2) mandatory hardware manufacturers (iOS/Android).

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#658

Post by account42 »

webhamster wrote: post #155

German implementer here. We have to use some kind of attestation mechanism per the eIDAS implementing acts. That doesn't work without operating system support. The initial limitation to Google/Android is not great, we know that, and we have support for other OSs on our list (like, e.g., GrapheneOS). It is simply a matter of where we focus our energy at the moment, not that we don't see the issues.

The proper response to requirements ruling out an ethical implementation is to not implement them, not to provide an unethical implementation.

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#659

Post by account42 »

conception wrote: post #425
vovavili wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Lol at eating just plants as being expensive. You do know where animals that are eaten get their food right?

Mostly from plants that humans can't or at least wouldn't want to eat.

Re: German implementation of eIDAS will require an Apple/Google account to function

#660

Post by account42 »

sotix wrote: post #388
vovavili wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Vegetables, legumes, nuts, and grains are not expensive, and veganism is a protected class in the UK.

Having a separate option is however not free.
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