Live data from Hacker News

Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

reuters.com

651–660 of 736 posts

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP, but posed like that, neither. Expect something? Yes. Enforce it? Not sure for the first tranche, but make it a prerequisite for continued funding. One big obstacle is, of course, how to define what to expect from each artist. For example, you can't expect the same level of output from sculptors and musicians. Another big obstacle is obviously the expected quality of output. I don't pretend to know the solutio…

I don't think there's any evidence that those obstacles are surmountable, unless it's something like the Pope telling Michaelangelo to paint a ceiling. A bridge has defined scope and budget (ish) and a defined benefit attached to it, which many people will sign off on before it is commissioned, and it might take years to do, but it will also serve the local population for potentially hundreds of years in a practical…

Actually, you provided an example where the obstacle was somehow surmounted [1].

The expectation doesn't have to be too specific or unrealistic. If you agree on some common ground [2], everything else can be fair game for the artist.

Your analogy with the bridge would apply if art also had a minimum viable version. Collapsed to its functional requirements, you could say that visual art is something to look at. But I doubt either party, especially the funding body or the public, would be happy without inserting some quality requirements (i.e., what makes something nice to look at).

Many artists do commissions, so you can see this as a commission with deliberately underspecified requirements.

[1] I won't get into the disagreements between the Pope and Michelangelo, and it's certainly not an example of a good contract, but we can assume that both parties were somewhat satisfied in the end.

[2] For example, both parties need to like it. Or the patron doesn't have to like it, but it needs to appeal to some public audience.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What determines fairness is how the resources in our society are allocated once all is said and done. I propose allocating upfront the work, so that those who disagree don't have to contribute into the "done" part of those who allocate it in a weird way.

What's stopping you? You've always had the option to move somewhere far away from society where you could keep 100% of what you make on your own.

> You've always had the option to move somewhere far away from society where you could keep 100% of what you make on your own.

Ah the good old "if you're homeless just buy a house" argument, only this time coming from the mentality of a statist.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> create cultural wealth and people who create mere monetary wealth the wealth in this case isn't monetary, it's material production, the productive work of people who create material objects, including your food and shelter. If it was about monetary stuff the government would just print the artists whatever amount of money they need. But that money has to be spent to buy from those who produce the stuff the artists…

The UBI money gets spent by the artist though, some on food, probably more on rent. The rent money probably gets hoarded by the landlord, the other goes to people selling real objects. That is real money back into the economy.

the unearned money gets spent on real produce you were to say.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All true, but let's not lose track of relative costs. The income program provides €33,800,000 a year (2000 participants, €325 a week, 52 weeks in a year). Double that to account for cost of managing the program -- that seems too high to me, but I want to err on the side of caution for this analysis. Some percentage of that money flows right back into the economy, of course. Meanwhile, ignoring windfall corporate taxe…

This program has nothing going for it. That 33 million could have built, let’s say, 66 houses and housed, let’s say, 264 people (66 families of four) for a generation before needing much in the way of maintenance. But no, fuck the working poor , let’s fund artists. Myopic.

> But no, fuck the working poor, let’s fund artists.

What if they built those 66 houses? Is the complaint then, "what about the other working poor, why didn't they get houses"? Is there ever a point where it's like, ok to help some people given that some is more than none? Or is this all zero sum bullshit where if we can't help everyone we should help no one and just give Google back it's tax dollars?

Speaking of "myopic".

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#655
post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't read the article. The scheme gave positive return on investment.

> It also recouped more than the trial's net cost of 72 million euros ($86 million) through increases in arts-related expenditure, productivity gains and reduced reliance on other social welfare payments, according to a government-commissioned cost-benefit analysis. I'd love to see the breakdown on this, because in my experience with Government comms, if it was a straightforward economic win like an FDI or industrial…

I understand your point, but in response to GP (they should spend this money on houses for other poor people instead), the reduced reliance on other social welfare is totally legitimate to count.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#657
post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because we use taxes as a process to crowdsource funding more effectively. That's literally the entire basis for it. Might as well ask why "only the taxpayers who care about a new highway can raise funds to buy it" and then we're back in some weird, system of no central government because someone can always claim "why not just like, let people donate money" because it's a simplistic cliche that appeals deeply to peop…

> simplistic cliche that appeals deeply to people who aren't quite clever enough Is this passive aggressive insult really necessary? > Because we use taxes as a process to crowdsource funding more effectively I’m sure you will agree that not everything that everybody wants can get funded. The debate here is how to draw the line. I think critical shared physical infrastructure occupying a limited valuable resource is…

> Is this passive aggressive insult really necessary?

I think simplistic cliche's deserve derision - if you don't like that, perhaps don't use them? It's hardly a shot at the writer to suggest that what he wrote is mediocre.

> I’m sure you will agree that not everything that everybody wants can get funded. The debate here is how to draw the line.

No, your argument was that I should fund things myself directly. I pointed out that that's an inane and boring argument. If you want to debate other things, then do that in the first place.

> so I’m struggling to follow your argument.

It might help if you re-read your own arguments first, instead of trying to make them into new ones. Things people want funded by the government get funded when they vote for them to get funded either directly or via representatives - if you don't like those things, there is a clear way to change the algebra. In no case is suggesting people just like, "pay some extra taxes, man" a useful are additive observation.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes they are. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Independent_scientist... - " An independent scientist (formerly called a gentlemen scientist) is a scientist with a private income who can pursue scientific study independently as they wish without excessive external financial pressures. " Including: Isaac Newton, Charles Darwin (Evolution), Ben Franklin, Robert Boyle (Boyle's gas law), Oliver Heaviside (electrom…

I wouldn’t exactly call any of those people idle . So you’re kind of refuting something I didn’t say.

If your claim isn't "rich people are idle" and is instead "idle people are idle" what possible interest or use is your comment?

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#659

"If you need subsidies in order to live off art, you don't live off art but live off the state". As part time artist I see many problems with these schemes: - Decoupled from people's actual appreciation of the art being done: I feel better when I know people voluntarily gave up their hard-earned money for what I do. - Monopoly-style "winner takes all". The people who benefit from this are the ones already in a positi…

Thats whats happened in Norway, and even worse they gave the artists the decision making process of handing out grants leading to them self dealing or dealing to their friends.

Oh, wow. The absolute worst thing that could happen to this sort of program would be for artists to make the decisions about who qualifies.

Re: Ireland rolls out basic income scheme for artists

#660
post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because, in the places where housing is expensive, it's expensive because a _LOT_ of people want to live there. It's a pipe dream that you can out build demand in these places. Reducing prices of housing in nice places to live (by any means, including building) will only result in more demand up until that insatiable demand is satisfied. Nice places to live can't support all the people that want to live there.…

> it's expensive because a _LOT_ of people want to live there. I can't figure out how to make the math make sense even if I were to build a house in the middle of nowhere. Time and materials is the real killer. Some day, when AI eliminates software development as a career, maybe you will be able to hire those people to build you houses for next to nothing, but right now I don't think it matters where or how many you…

You can't afford a 175k house on a software engineer salary?

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3024-N-Vermont-Ave-Oklaho...

Post reply on HN