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End of Japanese community

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Re: End of Japanese community

#651

Post by ToucanLoucan »

esmevane wrote: post #575
kstenerud wrote: post #369

I know that everyone has already given their opinions about what kinds of people are involved and their motivations, but this is really about two fallible humans, one listing grievances and another asking to open a communication channel. That's it. Anything else you read into this is going to be fraught with your own coloring based on a hundred words written in text (a notoriously difficult medium to establish emotio…

The OP quit, publicly, and the response (and your post) miss that entirely. They aren't interested in a personal chat, and they aren't inviting anyone to help them process their feelings. They've left, and told everyone why.

And good for them honestly. This seems disrespectful as fuck, to just have their work overwritten by some fuckass bot nobody asked for, and have their feedback ignored. I'd tell Mozilla to kick rocks too.

Corpos have a nasty habit of, after so many years, feeling very entitled to the efforts of what are, at the end of the day, volunteers.

Re: End of Japanese community

#652

Post by fwip »

cyberrock wrote: post #501
chao- wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am fascinated by the nuanced opinions people have about word choice. What phrase would you use to ask someone to discuss a matter, but which you feel would be more appropriate for this kind of situation?

I suspect GP has had negative experiences with that specific phrase, "hop on a [quick] call", hence their "irrational rage". I also hate seeing that phrase at work: 1. "Hop" and "quick" suggests very simple matters, so to text-based people like me it doesn't really make sense why we wouldn't be able to resolve this matter asynchronously over text. 1b. Alternatively, the matter isn't actually trivial, so we should've…

With regards to your last point - in-person, you have more opportunities to connect with people at times that they're clearly not in the middle of something. Whether that's at the coffee machine, or right after a meeting, or just by reading their body language to see if they're concentrating.

When you're remote, you don't have that context, so everything you need from somebody has to be either scheduled (with the overhead and delay that entails), or potentially randomizing. When you need 5 minutes of somebody's time, it can be hard to do that in a respectful way. (Personally, I do try to do a "do you have some time today that we could talk about X," and try to handle stuff over text with coworkers who prefer text.)

Re: End of Japanese community

#653

Post by burnte »

btilly wrote: post #620
kstenerud wrote: post #369

I know that everyone has already given their opinions about what kinds of people are involved and their motivations, but this is really about two fallible humans, one listing grievances and another asking to open a communication channel. That's it. Anything else you read into this is going to be fraught with your own coloring based on a hundred words written in text (a notoriously difficult medium to establish emotio…

In my experience, long-term volunteers like this don't just up and quit without having already made multiple attempts at communicating first. The fact that those attempts are not detailed in a public "I quit" message, doesn't mean that those attempts didn't exist. In my further experience, people with titles like "Senior Community Manager" (the title of Kiki, the person trying to "open communication") do not generall…

> In my experience, long-term volunteers like this don't just up and quit without having already made multiple attempts at communicating first.

Can confirm. You get kicked around long enough, you stop volunteering.

Re: End of Japanese community

#654

Post by sameerds »

> Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with.

That has the same vibes as a customer support helpline that has no intention to actually help.

Re: End of Japanese community

#655

Post by ThatMedicIsASpy »

a13n wrote: post #224
small_scombrus wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always surprised that stuff like the AI integration isn't done as a pre-installed extension. If it's Mozilla signed then you could give it extra permissions so it still works the same, but then people who it offends can remove it. Like how their tab containers system is a (not pre-installed) extension

ehh this reads a bit like the hn comments complaining about sites that don’t work with js disabled like what percent of firefox users do you think actually care about this?

enough to move to zen after 20+ years

Re: End of Japanese community

#656

Post by StarGrit »

crazygringo wrote: post #629
StarGrit wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's also well-known language from product managers and UX researchers trying to gather data to improve their product. And well-known language from customer support people trying to gather more information in order to escalate to the right people who can help. No it is not. The particular phrasing that was used I have never seen used in any other way than to be dismissive towards people. > Your knee-jerk cynicism s…

If you're never seen it used to be helpful, I don't know that to tell you. I have, all the time, and it seems entirely normal and unremarkable. > My cynicism stems from roughly 20 years working as a developer That saddens me. It seems like you've worked at some rough places, I'm sorry. But they're not all like that, and I wish you could see that. > Not if it gets noticed and talked about on forums. It is then used as…

> If you're never seen it used to be helpful, I don't know that to tell you. I have, all the time, and it seems entirely normal and unremarkable.

I suspect that you didn't understand the subtext of the conversation. If you aren't used to dealing with it, you will take the comment on face value, if you are like me that had to deal with it most of my life, you won't.

> That saddens me. It seems like you've worked at some rough places, I'm sorry. But they're not all like that, and I wish you could see that.

I got paid well enough. I prefer to be a gun for hire and deal with the reality. I actually prefer these environments, I can assume everyone around me is a snake.

> I don't see how it's going to work as damage control. Can you explain how? Either it helps resolve things (good), or it doesn't and people keep complaining in the thread. I don't see any scenario where it controls damage. Damage control is things like locking a thread or shadowbanning. Not offering to call.

I am sure other people have explained this to you. However it is extremely simple.

1) Feign concern. This fools enough people so it gets quieted down.

2) Call up, pretend to care, person calms down as they feel like things are being addressed.

3) Do nothing.

4) It gets forgotten about, person that initially instigated complaint doesn't bother following up.

> I'm really sorry you see everything through such a cynical lens.

I don't see everything through a cynical lens. I see communications of this type as cynically because they have almost always been disingenuous.

Re: End of Japanese community

#657

Post by xaedes »

alwa wrote: post #13
adeptima wrote: post #7

10+ years in Japan. The message here is much deeper from my perspective. “Let’s jump on the call” is not the solution. The guy was stripped off of his face. I love Japan for being human. Small business bar or restaurant with 3 tables. Not everything should be streamlined for a quick call solution… the process was pushed on his head. Google nemawashi decision making process

I did as you suggested with respect to “nemawashi.” I read about that and “ringi,” and I’m glad I did. Even to get just the gist of what I’m sure is a thin interpretation: that nemawashi refers to a “laying-the-groundwork” process of circulating a proposal between peer-level counterparts, before formalizing it and proposing to act on it. Much less crashing in with it in the form of a “SumoBot,” as Mozilla seems to ha…

> It puts a name to a considerate consensus-based way to approach change

When reading about nemawashi I immediately thought about its usage in software refactoring.

This is something you often intuitively do when making bigger refactors. Lay the foundations before actually doing it. Affected code parts and stakeholders should not be surprised by one big change. Instead they should be consulted before hand, building consensus, modify the planned big refactor itself and preparing the individual parts for it by small changes. Otherwise you will encounter a lot of friction, introduce bugs, etc.

It is very nice to have a proper term for this.

Re: End of Japanese community

#658

Post by mvdtnz »

rectang wrote: post #614
ecshafer wrote: post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They fired the inventor of Javascript as their CEO. They hired some grifter as their CEO who just keeps giving themselves more money. They keep throwing money at vanity side hustles. They purposefully confuse the Mozilla foundation with the browser, and have increasingly made the foundation redirect their funds to C level salaries and their own personal political passion projects that are not aligned with the Mozilla…

At least part of the Mozilla antagonism on HN comes from highly motivated culture war participants. The Brendan Eich situation was a seminal event, but the underlying reasons for it are why the grudge endures.

Not true.

Re: End of Japanese community

#659

Post by MisterTea »

kstenerud wrote: post #369

I know that everyone has already given their opinions about what kinds of people are involved and their motivations, but this is really about two fallible humans, one listing grievances and another asking to open a communication channel. That's it. Anything else you read into this is going to be fraught with your own coloring based on a hundred words written in text (a notoriously difficult medium to establish emotio…

> but this is really about two fallible humans,

Just please stop with the fluffy squishy feel good human nonsense. This is about a corporate team who recklessly flipped the switch of an AI that went through and trashed articles curated by another team.

> That's what communication is about.

And its plainly obvious the intent was NEVER communicated. The Japanese team had no idea their hard work was going to be overwritten by a computer.

Re: End of Japanese community

#660

Post by antonymoose »

pengaru wrote: post #102
alwa wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did as you suggested with respect to “nemawashi.” I read about that and “ringi,” and I’m glad I did. Even to get just the gist of what I’m sure is a thin interpretation: that nemawashi refers to a “laying-the-groundwork” process of circulating a proposal between peer-level counterparts, before formalizing it and proposing to act on it. Much less crashing in with it in the form of a “SumoBot,” as Mozilla seems to ha…

We Americans call this garnering buy-in.

I’ve more typically heard it as “consensus / coalition building” - but in any case it’s such a sane way to work. No one wants a rude surprise, so why make one for your teammates.
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