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John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

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Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#651

John describes exactly what I'd like someone to build: "To make something really different, and not get drawn into the gravity well of existing solutions, you practically need an isolated monastic order of computer engineers." As a thought experiment: * Pick a place where cost-of-living is $200/month * Set up a village which is very livable. Fresh air. Healthy food. Good schools. More-or-less for the cost that someon…

I want this job.

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were almost no kids on the XROS team. The bulk of the team were E6s with graying hairs, multiple kids, and very impressive history of work on other well-known operating systems -- and most of them wrote a lot of code. This was the senior-est team I ever was a member of. Also, the most enjoyable interview process I've ever been through, no bullshit whatsoever and a rare case that I actually had to implement the…

I chatted with someone on the language side of the project (I believe the same project) and it was fascinating how ambitious the concept was. I do wish it was finished or open sourced though

Yep, and the common mantra is that "ambitious" and "v1" shall never occur together in the same sentence.

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a small bunch of XROS people came from FB proper (mostly managers) because an average FB SWE has no required skills. Most folks were hired from the industry at E5/E6 and I think we had ever took one or two bootcampers that ultimately were not successful and quickly moved elsewhere in FB.

What were the required skills that bootcampers lacked? Has anybody without a university degree succeeded there?

Knowledge of C (XROS was written in C and during the interviews the candidate rather uncommonly wasn't given a choice of programming language) and general understanding of how a computer works at a low level. Knowing the purpose of "volatile", understanding cache lines, mapping virtual memory to physical memory, DMA, this kind of thing.

I think everyone had a degree but looking at my degree (applied math) in particular nothing that I had learned at the uni was immediately useful and I think there isn't really anything that would prevent a smart person with a GED and some history of, say, Linux kernel contributions from succeeding on a team like this. Except may be a degree is needed for H1B visa for those who need it.

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were quite a few of high-caliber individuals with equally impressive resumes in the organization to match Carmack's wisdom and ego.

Hard to believe that, although maybe they considered their own resumes equally impressive.

There were many, many influential software projects done in the past that are not games. Some of the people responsible worked in AR/VR and drove its vision and technical roadmaps.

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were quite a few of high-caliber individuals with equally impressive resumes in the organization to match Carmack's wisdom and ego.

The metaverse has really showcased that. They finally have feet now, right? Only light fun. I'm just a little perplexed at their progress and direction over the past 7-8 years. I don't understand how they can have so many high caliber people and put out...that.

First of all, AR/VR is a tough problem space, often for reasons not immediately obvious to common folk. Second, Facebook in my opinion is a wrong home for long-term efforts that may not bear fruit for many years, with its 6-month attention span of employee performance management and its "move fast and break things" culture (both of which clashed with the meticulous hardware-oriented Oculus culture). And finally, a significant portion of people working in AR/VR didn't believe in AR/VR as a product. Some were there for the gravy train, some were there for interesting OS work, some were there for bleeding-edge technology, but I'd say less than half would say "we're working on something that people will love and pay money for". To me it felt more like well-funded academia even and less like a startup (which it was supposed to be).

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a small bunch of XROS people came from FB proper (mostly managers) because an average FB SWE has no required skills. Most folks were hired from the industry at E5/E6 and I think we had ever took one or two bootcampers that ultimately were not successful and quickly moved elsewhere in FB.

What were the required skills that bootcampers lacked? Has anybody without a university degree succeeded there?

I just realized that you might not know what a "bootcamper" is. Facebook's hiring process generally goes like this:

- you're interviewed with a random team and evaluated if you'd be a good fit for the company.

- you are hired and go through a multi-week "bootcamp" to learn FB's vocabulary, processes, and tech stack, fixing some real bugs and implementing some real (but minor) features in the process.

- upon completing the bootcamp you seek a team that is of interest to you and if interest is mutual, you join the team. If you can't find a team after X weeks, you part ways with the company.

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you don't know what's going on; you're assuming. Cool. Incorrect. Their post makes it clear they were not involved in their own words. It's called reading comprehension.

> It's called reading comprehension. Right back at you.

Yes, except I’ve already displayed I’m capable of it whilst you have displayed only the opposite.

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#658
post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much money have states and local governments spent on Microsoft products and services? How much money has Microsoft collected from companies that are providing products and services to US governmental agencies? Government spending is not easy to track. This doesn't even begin to touch on non-monetary benefits Microsoft receives with government influence.

Now you are really starting to bend over backwards. The claim was that MS was a state enterprise. It's still not even close.

I'm mostly adding context to the statistic that Microsoft makes 0.21% of its revenue from the federal government, and arguing against the sub-claim that government spending is easy to track.

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Modern hardware is just so complicated it would take a long time to completely document, and even longer to write a driver for. You know, one'd think that having a complex hardware should make writing a driver easier because the hardware is able to take care of itself just fine, and provide a reasonable interface, as opposed to devices of the yore which you had to babysit, wasting your main CPU's time, and doing si…

No, the complexity usually isn't hidden. It's the driver's job to do that. I guess one exception maybe is Nvidia who have sort of hidden the complexity by moving most driver functionality onto software on the card. At least that's how I understood it. Don't quote me on that.

In some cases it is hidden though. USB has a lot of "generic" device classes where (at least in theory) the OS only needs to deal with a standardized interface and whatever actual hardware is behind it is driven by an embedded controller.

It's just that most internal hardware initially only cares only about Windows (or only Linux) so it makes more financial sense to develop a more complex driver than a complex firmware. The equation might change later on but by then you are stuck with the hardware design.

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#660
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I followed his posts internally before he left. He was strict about resource waste. Hand tracking would break constantly and he brought metrics to his posts. His whole point was that Apple has hardware nailed down and it’ll be efficient software that will be the differentiator. The bloat at Meta was the result of empire building.

The software for the Quest 3 is unreliable and breaks often. A team that attacks attempts to hold them accountable makes a lot of sense.

In my experience the one big problem on the Quest 3 is the user interface. I am still puzzled why they made a floating taskbar with tiny buttons that you have to hit with VR controllers. I have good eyes, decent hand-eye coordination and don't have shaky hands, yet I manage to hit a button at first try maybe 40% of the time. They made a cut-down 2D desktop interface that makes up a small fraction of the field of view for a VR device and called it a day, and then put the user into some virtual room with zero interactable elements.

Meta Quest 3 feels like sci-fi tech with badly executed UI design from the 90s.

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