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We may not like what we become if A.I. solves loneliness

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Re: We may not like what we become if A.I. solves loneliness

#651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Profit and self interest often at the expense of everything else is what drives progress. Xerox PARC. Bell Labs. Academia. Wikipedia. You must have a rather narrow and useless definition of "progress".

>Xerox PARC. Bell Labs. Academia. Wikipedia. You must have a rather narrow and useless definition of "progress". No i have a realistic definition of progress in capitalism. You must have a rather narrow brain and are unable to comprehend the difference between a realistic and practical application of "progress" versus an ideal that is unrealistic. Bell labs, Xerox PARC are done. These labs existed because capitalist…

> Where do Taxes come from? Business and profit.

Funny you should say that: business and profit are actually way undertaxed in the US, compared to (for instance) salaries and pensions. But, you're still talking about the on-paper accounting (and choosing an arbitrary point in a cyclic economy as the "original source", but let's ignore that for now).

Let's consider how progress actually occurs, on the ground. People learn how things work, whether through study, experience, original thought, or (more often) a mix of the three. They then attempt to find improvements: new methods, new machines, new buildings. They then verify these improvements, through experiment, theory, or a mix of the three. We call this "innovation". They then put these into practice: building, manufacturing, distributing, teaching, or performing; which improves the efficiency of some resource manipulation activity, or enables people to accomplish or experience things they couldn't otherwise. We call this "progress".

Individuals cannot efficiently acquire all resources (respectively: accomplish all tasks, experience all experiences, etc) alone. Specialised tools and skillsets allow certain people to accomplish certain tasks more efficiently than others: we call this "expertise" and "economies of scale" and "virtuoso", among other names. Working together, people can accomplish more than they can apart: we call this "collaboration" when it is direct, and "trade" when it is indirect. To make trade (locally) more efficient in large groups, we abstract large trade networks by valuing more-or-less everything along one axis, which we call "currency", or "money". Money represents resources, because it can be exchanged for goods and services. (Therefore, money is fungible.) Money also represents debt, for much the same reason. (Therefore, money is not fungible.) What money represents depends quite a lot on your metaphysics, because it is an abstract concept.

A trade where each party to the trade receives more value than they spend (according to the "money's worth" metric) is considered a "profitable trade": the "more value" is called the "profit", and trades can be profitable for all parties despite a variety of different choices of profit allocation. (Various factors constrain profit allocation in practice; we will not discuss them here.) Some trades are mediated by intermediaries (traders, employers), who take some portion of the profit: in some cases, these intermediaries are providing value (e.g. by transporting goods, or organising a team); but in other cases, they are not. One example of an intermediary that does not provide any value is a corporate person qua employer: by virtue of not actually existing, a corporation cannot by any clever argument be said to actually contribute to boots-on-the-ground labour activity.

So we see that profit is, except on the balance sheets of a sole trader / worker-owned coöp, actually the removal of resources from the people doing the actual work, making the actual progress. If the removed resources are pooled and used for R&D – as in the cases you describe as "side quests" – and we further propose that this R&D would not have been performed by those the resources were removed from, we can say that profit contributes towards progress. (Certain investment schemes provide another example.) However, in many cases, profit goes towards things like "build us a moat to keep the competitors out!" or "bribe the regulators" or "outspend our competitors' advertising budget" or "buy the C-suite even bigger yachts": we cannot say this contributes towards progress, unless we define the ultimate end of human progress narrowly: in the field of yacht manufacturing, or perhaps the field of cheating at sports.

Business, likewise, is sometimes related to progress, but sometimes unrelated to it, and in any case not in any way essential to progress (except in the field of business studies). Saying the word "actuality" doesn't make what you say true.

I notice you didn't address the example of Wikipedia.

Re: We may not like what we become if A.I. solves loneliness

#652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also resist having children so they will not be resisting immigration for long.

Why ever would you compare children and immigration? I love my parents and I’d have solidarity for my country fellows (France here). Immigrants don’t generally earn much, let alone work legally and pay taxes. They are not paying our retirement. They require doctors and produce our “medical deserts” (the name we use in France where social security fails because of lack of practicians). They also wouldn’t fight for us…

He is not saying immigrants are like children, he means that as the population ages and is not replenished by children, there will be nobody left to work unless the country accepts immigrants.

Re: We may not like what we become if A.I. solves loneliness

#653
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though it's popularized to blame social media and phones, economics should not be overlooked. Pay for young generations is lagging and restaurants and bar prices are super high. Public spaces for informal gatherings has shrunk - eg fewer malls

The average age of first home owners has risen to 38. In another decade or two the American dream will probably be to buy a house when you're 50 and then settle down, get married, and have a family. I wonder how that's going to work out?

Narrator: It did not work out.

Re: We may not like what we become if A.I. solves loneliness

#654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also resist having children so they will not be resisting immigration for long.

Why ever would you compare children and immigration? I love my parents and I’d have solidarity for my country fellows (France here). Immigrants don’t generally earn much, let alone work legally and pay taxes. They are not paying our retirement. They require doctors and produce our “medical deserts” (the name we use in France where social security fails because of lack of practicians). They also wouldn’t fight for us…

In the US, immigrants often do pay taxes, and use up fewer benefits[1]. Moreover, our social security relies on perpetual growth to sustain itself. So if we can't grow our population via children, we must grow it via immigrants, to remain solvent.

[1] https://www.cato.org/blog/immigrants-used-less-welfare-nativ...

Re: We may not like what we become if A.I. solves loneliness

#655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would not be a misunderstanding, it is so

Then I have to wholeheartedly disagree, because that's elitist. The 10% of the population will never have problems with information access. Only the poor is affected if you go after information access.

O.k., misled information access...now let me do this for you...

My kinese television-set says: "People are digitally often misled by disinformation."

Have you ever "searchengined" a look for a "lesbian sunset"? The search-engine i used had more than 29,000 search-hits for "lesbian sunset", and i clicked on nearly all of them...but there was none "lesbian sunset" no one, no a single one, none. It showed (for example)...

lesbian sunset

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Lesbian Sunset - Check out our selection of lesbian sunsets to find the most amazing unique or custom-made handmade lesbian sunsets from our stores.

Lesbian sunset: what's going on?

Classic lesbian sunset... Regular special offers and discounts up to 70%

Lesbians on the Beach: Stock video

...and they dance! Sunset as a stage of belonging.

High-quality lesbian sunset-themed items from all over the world. Get out the cylinder and monocle, now it's time

Sunset for Sale

Reel with a feminist touch and sunset golf course.

Lesbian sunset for adults Colorful ... Lively, inspired by the sunset, expressing identity in style.

Manifesto of the „Lesbian Sunset“

Sunset in red and purple - not just beautiful.

Lesbian sunset in Munich and after-party

A different scene...

I mean, that's a myth.

There is no lesbian sunset for me!

But typed in a search line... over 29,000 hits for "lesbian sunset" (counts)

They don't exist!

You don't even remotely know, even one

not even a single lesbian sunset...

At this point you may ask: "What he/she/it/div was thinking about?" (using an 'AI' to translate and for some 'chars' i forgot the asci-code for - too often...)

A battle-painting is probably the most accurate, i was thinking about 12 x 4 meters, where you've been able to zoom in, if you are at a computerscreen...

I even looked for fresco painters, nothing...!

Not a single lesbian sunset... not one...

(feeling rude about...)

That is what i call a Myth...

...talked too dumb, free! (explanation: How to set a one topic record for been too relevant OT but still related hahaha?)^^

Re: We may not like what we become if A.I. solves loneliness

#656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But in the end, the chickens always come home to roost. Dogs cannot support you in your old age; they cannot give you the pride of seeing a child go off to college; they cannot captivate you with conversations as they grow into full adults; and of course, they die far, far earlier than you. Similarly, the AI companions we create will be simulacra of the real thing. It's hard to say what exactly the differences will b…

And if your kid has downs or gets hit by a car or is an addict or a fuck up, they're not going to be able to support you into old age either. And then you're responsible for them as well, until you're too old and senile yourself, and then what? That's not to say don't have kids, but go into it with your eyes open, don't assume they're your lifeline to the future.

Sure. Kids are not guaranteed to provide all the things kids could provide. But dogs are guaranteed to not provide many of them. Life happens, but we still try to set ourselves up for happiness regardless.

Re: We may not like what we become if A.I. solves loneliness

#657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't match my experience. In fact one thing I noticed living in Japan is how much more willing people are to spend money to meet up. Lots of events costs 3000-7000 yen. Clubs and bar have a cover charge. People will organize parties where they rent a bar and tell their friends it's 4000 yen each (about $27 currently but was closer to $40) in the past. They'll even have house parties and tell everyone to pitch…

I think a lot of this conversation is centered in the US, most other countries haven't been through a suburbanization at the rate and size the US has gone through. It is very easy for you to be disconnected from reality living in the suburbs in florida (where I live, for instance) than it is to do the same in a city like Barcelona or São Paulo. I don't know of any other country were living in the burbs is desirable,…

Barcelona and São Paulo are quite comparable to cities like NYC or Boston. I imagine people in rural Spain and Brazil also get around via car.

Re: We may not like what we become if A.I. solves loneliness

#658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also resist having children so they will not be resisting immigration for long.

Why ever would you compare children and immigration? I love my parents and I’d have solidarity for my country fellows (France here). Immigrants don’t generally earn much, let alone work legally and pay taxes. They are not paying our retirement. They require doctors and produce our “medical deserts” (the name we use in France where social security fails because of lack of practicians). They also wouldn’t fight for us…

I think you’re missing the point. Modern societies with things like welfare, free healthcare, the concept of “retirement”, etc. require a growing population in order to function. But if the natives aren’t reproducing, either the natives have to accept a lower standard of living (ha ha) or you need to import warm bodies to keep the game going. We’re assured, of course, that importing anyone and everyone has absolutely no negative effects, but, well, we’ll see.

Re: We may not like what we become if A.I. solves loneliness

#659
post #257
post #97

> Even in a world brimming with easy distractions—TikTok, Pornhub, Candy Crush, Sudoku—people still manage to meet for drinks, work out at the gym, go on dates, muddle through real life. They actually don't. Everything from dating and fitness to manufacturing and politics is in decline in activities, and more so in effect and understanding. You can't convince (enough) people anymore that it is even important as many…

Though it's popularized to blame social media and phones, economics should not be overlooked. Pay for young generations is lagging and restaurants and bar prices are super high. Public spaces for informal gatherings has shrunk - eg fewer malls

Nah, they could just throw cheap BYOB parties with plastic cups with your name written on it, but they don't anymore:

https://www.derekthompson.org/p/the-death-of-partying-in-the...

Re: We may not like what we become if A.I. solves loneliness

#660
post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But in the end, the chickens always come home to roost. Dogs cannot support you in your old age; they cannot give you the pride of seeing a child go off to college; they cannot captivate you with conversations as they grow into full adults; and of course, they die far, far earlier than you. Similarly, the AI companions we create will be simulacra of the real thing. It's hard to say what exactly the differences will b…

Children are not born to be your personal care takers for when you eventually get old.

Did I say they were? I just said that dogs cannot be, even if they want to be. This is just one of many things that kids can help with, and for the vast majority of parents in the world, do help with.

This applies to everything else I said too. Your kids are not obliged to spend their time talking with you, but you can hope that they will -- the same cannot be said for a dog.

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