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LLM Inevitabilism

tomrenner.com

651–660 of 1001 posts

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#651
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally from the article --- start quote --- Anyone who sees the future differently to you can be brushed aside as “ignoring reality”, and the only conversations worth engaging are those that already accept your premise. --- end quote --- Mass adoption is not inevitable. Everyone will drop this "faster harder" tech like a hot potato when (not if) it fails to result in meaningful profits. Oh, there will be forced ma…

Or Copilot. It's actions like this that are making me think seriously about converting my gaming PC to Linux - where I don't have to eat the corporate overlord shit.

Do it. Proton is really, really, really good now.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#652
post #568

The author seems to imply that the "framing" of an argument is done so in bad faith in order to win an argument but only provides one-line quotes where there is no contextual argument. This tactic by the author is a straw-man argument - he's framing the position of tech leaders and our acceptance of it as the reason AI exists, instead of being honest, which is that they were simply right in their predictions: AI was…

The IT industry is also full of salesmen and con men, both enjoy unrealistic exaggeration. Your statements would not be out of place 20 years ago when the iPhone dropped. Your statements would not be out of place 3 years ago before every NFT went to 0. LLMs could hit an unsolvably hard wall next year and settle into a niche of utility. AI could solve a lengthy list of outstanding architectural and technical problems…

> The IT industry is also full of salesmen and con men, both enjoy unrealistic exaggeration. Your statements would not be out of place 20 years ago when the iPhone dropped. Your statements would not be out of place 3 years ago before every NFT went to 0. LLMs could hit an unsolvably hard wall next year and settle into a niche of utility.

The iPhone and subsequent growth of mobile (and the associated growth of social media which is really only possible in is current form with ubiquitous mobile computing) are evidence it did change everything. Society has been reshaped by mobile/iPhone and its consequences.

NFTs were never anything, and there was never an argument they were. The were a financial speculative item, and it was clear all the hype was due to greater fools and FOMO. To equate those two is silly. That's like arguingsome movie blockbuster like Avengers Endgame was going to "change everything" because it was talked about and advertised. It was always just a single piece of entertainment.

Finally for LLMs, a better comparison for them would have been the 80's AI winter. The question should be "why will this time not be like then?" And the answer is simple: If LLMs and generative AI models never improve an ounce - If they never solve another problem, nor get more efficient, nor get cheaper - they will still drastically change society because they are already good enough today. They are doing so now.

Advertising, software engineering, video making. The tech is already for enough that it is changing all of these fields. The only thing happening now is the time it takes for idea diffusion. People learning new things and applying it are the slow part of the loop.

You could have made your argument pre-chatgpt, and possibly could have made that argument in the window of the following year or two, but at this point the tech at the level to change society exists, it just needs time to spread. All it need are two things: tech stays the same, prices roughly stay the same. (No improvements required)

Now there still is a perfectly valid argument to make against the more extreme claims we hear of: all work being replaced..., and that stuff. And I'm as poorly equipped to predict that future as you (or anyone else) so won't weigh in - but that's not the bar for huge societal change.

The tech is already bigger than the iPhone. I think it is equivalent to social media, (mainly because I think most people still really underestimate how enormous the long term impact of social media will be in society: Politics, mental health, extremism, addiction. All things they existed before but now are "frictionless" to obtain. But that's for some other post...).

The question in my mind is will it be as impactful as the internet? But it doesn't have to be. Anything between social media and internet level of impact is society changing. And the tech today is already there, it just needs time to diffuse into society.

You're looking at Facebook after introducing the algorithm for engagement. It doesn't matter that society wasn't different overnight, the groundwork had been laid.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#653

People like communicating in natural language. LLMs are the first step in the movement away from the "early days" of computing where you needed to learn the logic based language and interface of computers to interact with them. That is where the inevitabilism comes from. No one* wants to learn how to use a computer, they want it to be another entity that they can just talk to. *I'm rounding off the <5% who deeply lov…

If there was a way to explain contracts in natural language, don’t you think lawyers would have figured it out by now? How much GDP do we waste on one party thinking the contract says they paid for one thing but they got something else?

There's a potentially interesting idea in the space of: The cryptobros went really deep into trying to describe everything Up To And Including The World in computer code, with things like Etherium contracts, tokenization of corporate voting power, etc. That's all dead now, but you have to have some respect for the very techno-utopian idea that we can extend the power and predictability of Computer Code into everything; and its interesting how LLMs were the next techno-trend, yet totally reversed it. Now, its: computer code doesn't matter, only natural language matters, describe everything in natural language including computer code.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#654

The author seems to imply that the "framing" of an argument is done so in bad faith in order to win an argument but only provides one-line quotes where there is no contextual argument. This tactic by the author is a straw-man argument - he's framing the position of tech leaders and our acceptance of it as the reason AI exists, instead of being honest, which is that they were simply right in their predictions: AI was…

So far what I've seen from LLMs writing code is insecure bug ridden slop. They are changing the industry in that now I have to code review messes from developers and non developers being careless. AI image and video generation isn't much better.

CEOs and investors love to talk about how "scary" AI is and publicly advocate for regulation (while privately shutting it down) because they NEED the money to keep flowing, because these things aren't profitable. Inevitabalism is a very accurate description of their PR campaign and it's sadly working, for the moment.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#655
post #236

How do you differentiate between an effective debater using inevitabilism as a technique to win a debate, and an effective thinker making a convincing argument that something is likely to be inevitable? How do you differentiate between an effective debater "controlling the framing of a conversation" and an effective thinker providing a new perspective on a shared experience? How do you differentiate between a good ar…

One good way is if they back up their assertions and explain their reasoning, which generally people arguing for LLM inevitability don't--they make assertions like "LLMs are only going to get better".

Contrast this with someone arguing the other side of the question like Ed Zitron or David Gerard. You may or may not agree with their arguments, but they explain, in great detail, with numbers and citations, how they arrived at their conclusions. If you don't agree with those conclusions, you should be able to point at a certain part of their argument and say "this is where you went wrong."

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#656

People like communicating in natural language. LLMs are the first step in the movement away from the "early days" of computing where you needed to learn the logic based language and interface of computers to interact with them. That is where the inevitabilism comes from. No one* wants to learn how to use a computer, they want it to be another entity that they can just talk to. *I'm rounding off the <5% who deeply lov…

LLMs are nowhere near the first step. This is Python, an almost 35 year old language: for apple in sorted(bag): snake.eat(apple) The whole point of high-level programming languages is we can write code that is close enough to natural language while still being 100% precise and unambiguous.

I really appreciate this take.

High level programming languages should be able to do much that LLMs can do when it comes to natural language expression of ideas into computing behavior, but with the extreme advantage of 100% predictable execution. LLM queries, system prompts, and context, of sufficient complexity, required to get reasonably good results out of the LLM, begin to look like computer code and require skills similar to software engineering; but still without the predictable conformance. Why not just write computer code?

Our industry developed some insanely high productivity languages, frameworks, and ways of thinking about systems development, in the mid-2000s. Rails is the best example of this; Wordpress, Django, certainly a few others. Then, for some reason, around the early 2010s, we just forgot about that direction of abstraction. Javascript, Go, and Rust took over, React hit in the mid-2010s, microservices and kubernetes, and it feels like we forgot about something that we shouldn't have ever forgotten about.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#657

People and companies that use LLMs will be seen as tacky and cheap. They already are. Eew you have an ai generated profile photo? You write (code) with ai? You use ai to create marketing and graphics? You use non deterministic LLMs to brute force instead of paying humans to write efficient algorithms? Yuck yuck yuck

Absolutely. When I see an obviously AI generated image its akin to seeing a stock photo. Same goes for these websites that obviously use some stock library for styling.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#658

The author seems to imply that the "framing" of an argument is done so in bad faith in order to win an argument but only provides one-line quotes where there is no contextual argument. This tactic by the author is a straw-man argument - he's framing the position of tech leaders and our acceptance of it as the reason AI exists, instead of being honest, which is that they were simply right in their predictions: AI was…

The "framing" is a tactic called "assuming the sale" - where statements are made as-if they are already true and the burden is placed on the other side to negate. Combine that with other tactics like fomo, scarcity, and authority and you will have people practically begging for these tools. As an example..

"Edison of our times Elon Musk (authority) believes that the AI agents are the future (assuming the sale), and most developers are already using it to improve productivity (fomo, social-proof). MCP agents are in short supply due to tariff driven bottlenecks, so buy them while supplies last (scarcity)".

This sort of influencing is accelerated by social-media, and is all around us, and short-circuits critical-thinking in most of us.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#659
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just remember that machines already do most of the work. Nobody ploughs fields anymore.

Yes, of course. What is AI freeing us of? Communicating with other human beings? Ah what a chore. Other human beings. Wish I could just enter into a cocoon of solitude for the rest of my life. I mean I'm kind of being glib here but the ~amazing future~ we all seem to take as inevitable has me playing solo orchestra conductor, prompt pupettering a massive fleet of hyper intelligent code bots, prompting an AI to make p…

It feels like some people have devalued their human experience so much that they're itching to burn off the rest of it for the hope of a technological nirvana occasionally punctuated by mundane human needs.

AI/the Internet will never fill the void, and they know it, but like an addict they demand more in the hopes that it will. The AI girlfriend won't be enough, they'll be told to wait for AI girlfriend 2.0 to _really_ experience love. Being played for a fool long enough makes anyone jaded and cynical.

Re: LLM Inevitabilism

#660

The author seems to imply that the "framing" of an argument is done so in bad faith in order to win an argument but only provides one-line quotes where there is no contextual argument. This tactic by the author is a straw-man argument - he's framing the position of tech leaders and our acceptance of it as the reason AI exists, instead of being honest, which is that they were simply right in their predictions: AI was…

> AI was inevitable. This is post hoc ergo propter hoc. AI exists thus it must have been inevitable. You have no proof it was inevitable. (Also AI means something wildly different than it meant a few years ago - I remember when AI meant AGI, the salesmen have persuaded you the emperor has clothes because they solved a single compelling test).

> This is post hoc ergo propter hoc. AI exists thus it must have been inevitable.

The problem with that statement is that it doesn't say anything about why AI will take over pretty much everything.

The actual answer to that is that AI is not limited by a biological substrate and can thus:

1. Harness (close to) the speed of light for internal signals; Biology is limited to about 200m/s, 6 orders of magnitude less. AI has no such limitations.

2. Scale very easily. Human brains are limited in how big they can get due to silly things such as the width of the birth canal and being on top of a (bipedal) body that uses organic mass to inefficiently generate power. Scaling a human brain beyond its current size and the ~20 watts it draws is an incredibly hard engineering challenge. For AI scaling is trivial by comparison.

I'm not saying it's going to be LLMs, but longterm we can say that the intelligent entities that will surpass us will not have the same biological and physical limitations as we do. That means they very, very probably have to be 'artificial' and thus, that AI taking over everything is 'inevitable'.

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