Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The $25k car is going extinct?

media.hubspot.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

651–660 of 1001 posts

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#651

Post by bumby »

kayodelycaon wrote: post #593
Ray20 wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People who can do the math realize that paying more up front for a hybrid or full electric is paying less long-term. Can they? In long term maintainability decides. And hybrids usually has it with maintainability pretty bad. Large area of potential breaking, expansive spare parts usually with strong vendor-lock. Hybrids are very costly in maintainability, even if you are privileged elite that buys hybrid and in two…

Toyota hybrids are much cheaper to maintain. - No engine belts - No starter - No alternator - No transmission(1) - No torque converter - No turbochargers - Regenerative braking can significantly reduce brake pad wear Edit: - AWD is an electric motor on the rear axle. No driveshaft or transfer case required. As long as you drive it regularly and keep up with scheduled maintenance, you don't have to do anything for wel…

CVTs are generally less reliable than traditional transmissions, especially under heavy loads. You get better mpg in exchange. You don’t have an alternator, but you have a much more expensive electric motor. You don’t have a turbocharger, but in exchange you lose performance at highway speeds. So like most engineering problems, it’s all about tradeoffs.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#652

Post by b112 »

WiSaGaN wrote: post #623
moooo99 wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, that statement is entirely untrue. These cars aren‘t 10k in most (all?) of the EU for example. As far as I know, these 10k cars are really only a thing in china and some SEA markets (I am not sure if these cars are really that cheap adjusted to purchasing power in these markets). Beyond that, the chinese EV brands are in market capture mode right now. The competition is cut throat and the margins are ex…

Can you name one example of a consumer product that China initially sold affordably to gain market share and then later raised prices?

It would be easier to mention the inverse, I'd imagine.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#653

Post by dylan604 »

kachapopopow wrote: post #608
tlogan wrote: post #577

This is a great example of how factually incorrect narratives - so long as they align with a preferred agenda (which is that things are not affordable any more) - it gets upvoted. Reality check: - In 2025, there are 12 new car models available under $25,000 - In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation) So the premise that “cars used to be much more affordable” is not true. This…

I think people are saying that you can't find a used car for cheap anymore more than anything.

After the supply chain crisis which saw used car prices look like new car prices, the used market really never came back to a sane level. I also wonder how many people are in the market for cars old enough to not have all of the telemetry tracking, "everything is computer" touchscreen nonsense which could be having an effect on the supply/demand of that part of the used car market. I recently bought a car specifically with those features in mind.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#654

Post by BanterTrouble »

tomrod wrote: post #586
ekianjo wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regulations will make cars unaffordable which is exactly what they are pushing for

This is an old and tired argument. There is no secret cabal at the wheel trying to make cars unaffordable for the purposes of social control. There is an old and tired cabal of manufacturers wanting to generate a moat and push prices up high.

Nobody says it is a secret cabal. It is very frustrating when people misstate other people's beliefs

There are politicians and activists that have been pushing for lower car ownership and they do it openly. Motivations for this vary.

> There is an old and tired cabal of manufacturers wanting to generate a moat and push prices up high.

Two things can be true at once.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#655

Post by yabones »

Ray20 wrote: post #499
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am surprised no one mentioned the 'SUV loophole' of US regulations that effectively boosted the SUVs (off-road vehicles are classified as non-passenger automobiles with everything that entails, notably much less stringent emission standards) and made the small cars unprofitable to make in comparison. This has become the irrelevant part because "does it have an electric motor in the powertrain" has become more imp…

>People who can do the math realize that paying more up front for a hybrid or full electric is paying less long-term. Can they? In long term maintainability decides. And hybrids usually has it with maintainability pretty bad. Large area of potential breaking, expansive spare parts usually with strong vendor-lock. Hybrids are very costly in maintainability, even if you are privileged elite that buys hybrid and in two…

The Toyota hybrid system has basically no wear items. There are no clutches, belts, or delicate hydraulic systems. The whole thing is made with big hardened steel ring gears and two electric motors. There are taxis in Vancouver with over a million KM clocked with nothing other than fluid changes and brakes/suspension.

https://eahart.com/prius/psd/

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#656

Post by infecto »

immibis wrote: post #541
infecto wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely untrue. Maybe in China or SEA but not for the rest of the world. Chinese manufacturers have come a long way and I wish I could buy one in the US but they are also pricing at razor thin margins to starve out competition. Even in Vietnam the Dolphin is $25k

That's just competition doing its job. The rate of profit, just like every other price, is supposed to fall to the minimum sustsinable level in capitalism.

Nobody was debating whether that was right or wrong simply that any cheap prices are a short term anomaly and not sustainable for those businesses.

The fact still stands, very rarely are Chinese EVs priced like that and it’s really only for the bare bones budget ones that barely meet local safety standards. I think about VF in Vietnam they have a 2 door 4 seater that’s $12k. Only a single airbag and I doubt any real modern crash standards built in. Works great for that market but not for the US.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#657

Post by yabones »

bumby wrote: post #651
kayodelycaon wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Toyota hybrids are much cheaper to maintain. - No engine belts - No starter - No alternator - No transmission(1) - No torque converter - No turbochargers - Regenerative braking can significantly reduce brake pad wear Edit: - AWD is an electric motor on the rear axle. No driveshaft or transfer case required. As long as you drive it regularly and keep up with scheduled maintenance, you don't have to do anything for wel…

CVTs are generally less reliable than traditional transmissions, especially under heavy loads. You get better mpg in exchange. You don’t have an alternator, but you have a much more expensive electric motor. You don’t have a turbocharger, but in exchange you lose performance at highway speeds. So like most engineering problems, it’s all about tradeoffs.

The e-CVT is _not_ a typical belt driven CVT like the crap Nissan puts in everything. It's better known as a Power-Split-Device.

https://eahart.com/prius/psd/

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#658

Post by TuringNYC »

huntertwo wrote: post #321
puzzlingcaptcha wrote: post #261

You can still buy a new subcompact car (like a Renault Clio or Skoda Fabia) in Europe for under 20k EUR. The more interesting question is why these cars disappeared in the US. And while many of the factors discussed here are true for both EU and US (inflation, interest rates, manufacturer profit margins etc) I am surprised no one mentioned the 'SUV loophole' of US regulations that effectively boosted the SUVs (off-ro…

You mean 23k usd? Corolla is 22k msrp i.e under 20k euro. Nissan versa is 20k msrp. Then account for the fact that Americans have higher income than Europeans.

I found that saving money on the car helps a bit, but not much -- the insurance costs are usually the dominant factor. Almost no one here seems to be talking about that.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#659

Post by infecto »

NickC25 wrote: post #603
mattmaroon wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it’s well below the minimum sustainable level due to Chinese government subsidies.

And that's a bad thing? A country's government sees an opportunity to invest into a promising new technology that could reap tremendous economic benefits. Such benefits include new jobs, new income, the ability to increase social/political capital worldwide, and help usher in a world that is that much less reliant on oil. That's what countries in the first world are supposed to do .

China historically does it in a way where they orchestrate cartel like behavior and will dump inventory on the market at low prices to kill off international competition. Some of it is altruistic but not all of it.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#660

Post by greenavocado »

tlogan wrote: post #577

This is a great example of how factually incorrect narratives - so long as they align with a preferred agenda (which is that things are not affordable any more) - it gets upvoted. Reality check: - In 2025, there are 12 new car models available under $25,000 - In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation) So the premise that “cars used to be much more affordable” is not true. This…

There are a bunch of nice Toyotas in the USA with MSRP just under 25K right now, including the Corolla Hybrid, which is pretty sweet considering how fuel efficient it is. https://www.toyota.com/
Post reply on HN