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String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

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Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#651

Post by bnjms »

samatman wrote: post #350
nataliste wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious: Do you think J.D. Vance unintentionally dog-whistling a Scott Alexander article when he's on the Joe Rogan podcast was orchestrated or just what happened?[0] --- [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/1ggl0mh/jd_...

What is "unintentionally dog-whistling" supposed to mean? Isn't intention the essence of the concept of the "dog whistle"? I'd also like to observe that Scott Alexander does a yearly survey, which provide unusually robust evidence that if we're going to impute to him the cultural affiliations of those who read his posts, his politics can only be "all of it".

The dog whistle is a message hidden to those not in the know. An unintentional dog whistle is a hidden message shared by mistake. Either not intended and so a false message, or not intended but accidentally shared.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#652

Post by refurb »

eddieh wrote: post #585
nkurz wrote: post #49

Most of the news coverage I've seen of this story is omitting what some might consider a relevant detail: almost all the members of this group are trans. This is a divisive topic, but failing to mention this makes me worry a story is pushing a particular agenda rather than trying to tell the facts. Here's what the story looks like if the trans activism is considered central to the story: https://thepostmillennial.com…

WARNING: The Post Millennial is an extremist website. I can’t believe that getting “news” about an extremist group from another extremist organization is a productive way to make sense of the world. Honestly, read whatever you want but just be aware that radical extremist exist and commit horrific crimes and other radical extremist will exploit that. It is radical extremism that’s dangerous in and of itself—not just…

* WARNING: The Post Millennial is an extremist website.*

Ok, but is there anything false stated?

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#653

Post by gosub100 »

titanomachy wrote: post #613
CuriousCosmic wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He's taking a cocktail of drugs that gets prescribed via telemedicine and was telling us about the serious side effects he was suffering: one of these drugs, spironolactone, is primarily a drug that alters your mineral metabolism but has the effect of suppressing testosterone if you take 20x the normal dose. (My doc gives it to me for my blood pressure.) He has insatiable cravings for salt as a result. It's worth n…

I don't think it's the spironolactone part that was concerning, but that the idea of the new gender identity came from someone else and lots of convincing was required. It reminds me of a friend I have who is quite severely depressed and has gone through a wide range of sexual identities. Straight, to asexual, then gay, then polyamorously bisexual, and now back to monogamously straight. Each change she excitedly expl…

Another factor is the media outrage machine. Being a part of a conflict is appealing to some, for the same reasons that some people join the military. I could see this appetite for conflict leading some people to falsely claim to be trans. Whereas they wouldn't if people were more accepting of it, and the media didn't frame every story in a way that showcases outrage.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#654

Post by stuartjohnson12 »

IshKebab wrote: post #641
waveBidder wrote: post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the term you're looking for is pascal's mugging, and it originates from within rationalism

It seems a bit nonsense to me. > The mugger argues back that for any low but strictly greater than 0 probability of being able to pay back a large amount of money (or pure utility) there exists a finite amount that makes it rational to take the bet. This is a basic logic error. It ignores the very obvious fact that increasing the reward amount decreases the probability that it will be returned . E.g. if the probabili…

That's what the person responding to meant - attempts to make human systems "rational" often involves simplifying dependent probabilities and presenting them as independent.

The rationalist community both frequently makes this reasoning error and is aware they frequently make this error, and coined this term to refer to the category of reasoning mistake.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#655

Post by saagarjha »

hollerith wrote: post #604
the_af wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What puzzles me about Eliezer Yudkowsky is this: He has no formal education. He hasn't produced anything in the actual AI field, ever, except his very general thoughts (first that it would come, then about alignment and doomsday scenarios). He isn't an AI researcher except he created an institution that says he is one , kind of as if I created a club and declared myself president of that club. He has no credentials (…

It is true that he has no academic credentials, but people with academic credentials have been employed on the research program led by him: Andrew Critch for example, who has a PhD in math from UC Berkeley, and Jesse Liptrap who also has a math PhD from a prestigious department although I cannot recall which one. Also, this page lists 3 ex-Googlers as being currently employed by Eliezer's org: https://intelligence.or…

Ok, but hundreds of thousands of people have worked for Google without being experts on AI. Anyone who employs one, doesn't automatically become more credible. If you believe that then I want you to know that this comment was written by an ex-Google employee and thus must be authoritative ;)

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#656

Post by sunshowers »

skissane wrote: post #632
sunshowers wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My specific issue is with moral responsibility, which I believe is out of one's control. (So for example I don't think developers are to morally blame for writing bad code.)

Yes, but there again you are conflating three separate questions: (1) Do we have choices? (2) Are our choices "free"? (3) Should we be held morally responsible for our choices? How we answer (1) and (2) doesn't necessarily determine how we answer (3). And if (3) is your real point, maybe you should focus on that, rather than confusing things by conflating it with (1) and (2).

I just don't think people being religious is different in kind from people being trans. (Degree, yes, but not kind.)

I'm saying as an irreligious trans person who sees the wreckage that fundamentalist religion is causing on my community at the moment.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#657

Post by victorbjorklund »

nejsjsjsbsb wrote: post #204
__turbobrew__ wrote: post #189

This whole rabbit hole of rationalism, less wrong, and ziz feels like a fever dream to me. Roaming trans veganist tatical death squads shooting border officers and stabbing 80 year olds with swords. This is the kind of thing where it is warranted that the feds gets every single wiretap, interception, and surveillance possible on everyone involved in the zizian movement.

Split the beliefs from the crime. A bunch of murderers were caught. Given they are dangerous killers, one killing a witness and one faking their death yeah they should get warrants.

Can you really split the beliefs of the nazi movement in germany in 1940 from the crimes the believers committed?

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#658

Post by victorbjorklund »

concordDance wrote: post #306
__turbobrew__ wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It appears the ven diagram of the beliefs and crimes overlap quite a bit. Sometimes the beliefs are that certain crimes should be committed. This is a free country (disputably) and you should be able to think and say whatever you want, but I also think it is reasonable for law enforcement in the investigation of said crimes to also investigate links to other members in the movement.

> It appears the ven diagram of the beliefs and crimes overlap quite a bit. There are hundreds of thousands of rationalists (to a greater or lesser extent). Very few go shoot people.

How many nazis are there in the world? Millions? How many have shoot people? A handful

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#659

Post by [deleted] »

HeatrayEnjoyer wrote: post #647
rachofsunshine wrote: post #149

[Former member of that world, roommates with one of Ziz's friends for a while, so I feel reasonably qualified to speak on this.] The problem with rationalists/EA as a group has never been the rationality, but the people practicing it and the cultural norms they endorse as a community. As relevant here: 1) While following logical threads to their conclusions is a useful exercise, each logical step often involves some…

Eliezer is many things but I don't see him behaving egotisticaly. He has always come across very genuine.

[deleted]

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#660

Post by taurknaut »

wanderingbit wrote: post #235

I’m from Burlington and a couple weeks ago downtown I noticed a group of 2 or 3 people walking past me in full black clothing with ski masks (the kind you rob banks with). I thought it was strange, having never seen that before except on Halloween, but didn’t think to alert any authorities specifically because Burlington is filled with people dressing differently and doing strange things. But 99% of the time it’s tot…

I can't speak to Burlington but in philly balaclavas (which is what those masks are called) are quite common and have been since 2020. I suspect this is true of many cities. It's been the subject of some controversy involving mask bans. In fact seeing someone in all black with a ski mask on is a pretty typical, if intimidating, fashion.
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