An excellent change. It's unfortunate that stewardship of the committee will soon change hands as Khan has been a great advocate for fair contracts between companies and consumers during her tenure.
This whole new fantasy that billionaires know best for consumers is quite concerning. The idea that these institutions, like FTC, are bad for consumers, and this new blind faith that things must be deregulated because the market will solve it for the better is going to be interesting. By the way, when things turn bad, it's we who will pay the price again for this deregulation, not billionaires. It's like people are c…
FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices
651–660 of 691 posts
Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices
#652Earlier quoted context omitted.
That’s the whole reason that small claims court exists.
Yeah take days off work to get $300. Totally worth it! I can't understand why everybody doesn't do it.
You could win that case with very little evidence. Merely the written contract, a photo of the loose antenna (or the antenna itself, if the installer left it behind instead of installing it), the statement from the installer stating that he couldn’t complete the job, and the bills for the service that you couldn’t use but that you have had to pay up to that point. That’s all paperwork that you should have held on to anyway, at least for a few years.
Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices
#653Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agreed. With any such service, I budget 1 hour. If I can't get cancellation within that time-frame I have a standard form letter that gets sent out. Once the letter is sent, after the current billing cycle ends any additional charges from said service are disputed (either on the card or on bank account) as fraud. On three occasions, I've been asked to provide proof of fraud. I've emailed a scan of the cancellation le…
Honestly, if it works, why not send the letter first and not waste an hour on the phone?
Genuinely, sometimes calls simply get transferred to the "wrong people", the CSR rep is brand new, the system itself gets backed-up (Poisson distributions can be a bitch), the company is going through a transition to a completely new CSR interface, or the general counsel just shoved an entirely new set of operating agreements up everyone's ass. Companies are made of people.
I consider 1 hour my botd (benefit of the doubt) tax for cancellation of consumer services.
Also note, that's not one continuous hour of time*attention.
Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices
#654Earlier quoted context omitted.
Or even more importantly, why aren't lawyers and consumer protection organizations promoting and spreading this knowledge? The lawyer field is captured and they know they'd get taken to court by other lawyers if they "recommended" such a thing, because their industry has made them liable for things they "recommend".
Probably indeed a US liability thing. The FTC-like agency in my country publishes standard letters for this and a tool on their website to find the right letter or generate it based on some input. We still get the same consumer-hostile practices from companies, but usually they give up if you send them one of those letters.
One thing about the U.S. is this sort of liability also has a huge gamut depending almost entirely on which actual U.S. state the transaction is done.
However, there's also likewise a huge gamut between what's technically actionable versus what's practicable with jurisprudence. Europe has an entirely different notion of "legal fees".
Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices
#655Earlier quoted context omitted.
So now likely hundreds (or more) of individuals have to not only wait on hold forever, but have to learn the process of and actually go through with filing a small claim? That there is recourse is beside the point when it is mired in bureaucracy (not to mention taking days off to show up to court, etc).
Only a few would actually have to do it. But if everyone lets them get away with it, then I have no sympathy.
There is the case of ignorance, where a person might not know about small claims court, let alone how it works and what it does. Then there is the case of an increasing number of forced arbitration clauses. Then there is the fact that companies wishing to not get swept up in a wave of small claims will reach out and try to fix the problem if they do actually have a case they think they might lose, further preventing more people from talking about it. And small claims court may ‘only take minutes to resolve,’ but that small length of time would only happen once you are actually seen in court. Before that, you’d need to - file with a clerk (meaning, spend time learning what you need to file, where you need to file it, etc.), - serve the defendant (which costs money and time), - arrive at the court in the morning for roll call, - wait a few hours until you and the defendant are actually called (if they showed up…, which if not expect to come back after serving them again).
This is not a ‘trivial’ task, and all the while the company that scammed you already had your money. As a large company, you can arbitrage the profit of this shady behavior against the risk of someone actually going through all of the steps.
Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices
#656Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are they? A very basic website can easily have a form you can fill to sign up and all it does on the back end is send an email with the info to the proprietors. Even a generic mailto: or tel: link arguably makes it possible to sign up via the website, if tapping the link on your phone to send a message can directly result in a signup. To do the same thing for cancellations you'd have trouble avoiding the need for cus…
If you can have a signup form you can also have a cancel form.
If you have a cancel form it does matter, because it has to match the one used to sign up or they don't know who you are, even if the customer doesn't remember which one they used. Or any number of other issues with matching the request to a subscription.
Humans can sort this out, but then you can't cancel on the website. Computers can also sort this out, but then you need sophisticated programming instead of a basic form. It's not symmetrical.
Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices
#657Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are they? A very basic website can easily have a form you can fill to sign up and all it does on the back end is send an email with the info to the proprietors. Even a generic mailto: or tel: link arguably makes it possible to sign up via the website, if tapping the link on your phone to send a message can directly result in a signup. To do the same thing for cancellations you'd have trouble avoiding the need for cus…
A local business with a simple email form isn't going to sign you up without calling you to get more information and make sure you're a real person. That's already setting a precedent that you call them to cancel.
What do you mean?
You go to the website, it has a form where you fill in your name and address and what service you want. They don't need any further information to send you an invoice. As soon as you pay it, landscapers come to your house and mow your lawn, and then each month you get another invoice until you cancel. That's a subscription; you signed up on the website using the form.
Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices
#658Earlier quoted context omitted.
Only a few would actually have to do it. But if everyone lets them get away with it, then I have no sympathy.
No sympathy, are you implying that the victim here is somehow to blame, or is instigating this behavior? If so, this is analogous to victim blaming. If you decide not to waste your resources to combat someone who has wronged you, you are not ‘to blame’ for that wrong doing. It is shitty that the company can take advantage of a person like this in the first place, don’t make the situation worse by taking this sociopat…
Besides, it’s easier than you pretend. The form you have to fill out is literally two pages long. The costs and filing fees are minimal, and they’ll even waive them if you ask. You can email your local sheriff and have them take care of service, or do it by mail. Yes, you will likely spend more time waiting in the lobby (more likely the hallway in the basement, but whatever) on the day of your hearing than you will spend in front of the judge, but what more could you possibly want? The process has been made literally as simple as is currently feasible.
Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices
#659This shouldn't be controversial. FTC isn't banning these fees, it is only requiring merchants to disclose the fees. Why would anyone be against that? Another good rule is click-to-cancel. Just a couple of days ago I logged into my Dish Network account to cancel it (after they hiked prices). There is no way to cancel online. There is no way to cancel via chat. You have to call. As soon as you call you're told the wait…
Why is a law needed to address this? Isn't the market supposed to adjust for companies like this?
There are primary indicators that you use to decide whether to make a purchase, and then there are other (let's call them secondary) indicators.
Primary is stuff like "the advertised price" and "the claimed features/service." Secondary is stuff like "have I ever heard that this company does shitty things" and "is there going to be a BS fee added to the total right before I click 'charge'?"
Once you're in their snare, a company benefits from being shitty. Plenty of people will pay the junk fee (did they even notice?) -- the important part is that your advertised price ranks near the competition. Plenty of people will sign up for a service that is difficult to cancel -- the important part is that the price starts out reasonable and that the service is adequate.
Even if the company is run by true saints, raising that sticker price to reflect the true price is anti-competitive! We can't be the only ones being honest! And they're right. That's why a law is needed to address it.
edit: Perhaps you were being sarcastic. Felt good to state my opinion, anyway :)
Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices
#660This shouldn't be controversial. FTC isn't banning these fees, it is only requiring merchants to disclose the fees. Why would anyone be against that? Another good rule is click-to-cancel. Just a couple of days ago I logged into my Dish Network account to cancel it (after they hiked prices). There is no way to cancel online. There is no way to cancel via chat. You have to call. As soon as you call you're told the wait…
The problem with click-to-cancel is that there should be confirmations built into important cancellations. But require it to be practical to do online, with no delays and no requirement about when relative to renewals.
Better, in my opinion, is a clear and easy way to "uncancel" if you accidentally cancel. But even that can be abused: "Here's a button that looks like a confirmation, but actually it's a resubscribe button." It's just too tempting to make that "number of people who resubscribed after cancelling" number a target. You think you're reminding the customer of their mistake, but really you're just optimizing the dark pattern.