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South Korean president declares martial law, parliament votes to lift it

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Re: South Korean president declares martial law, parliament votes to lift it

#651
post #4

Can someone ELI5 if this is a huge deal (like declaring martial law would be in the west), or if this is the equivalent of a "government shutdown" when similar budget impasses occur in the US?

The president attempted to block access to the National Assembly via police and military. The military administration's first order was to announce a ban on public gatherings and political activities and announce violators would be arrested without due process. This would have been a huge deal if it had been implemented even a few hours faster and the National Assembly were unable to convene.

Re: South Korean president declares martial law, parliament votes to lift it

#652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I thought there was some legal provision in the US for the military to disobey unconstitutional orders It's less a legal provision than a consequence of humans being the interface of the law. So while there is, in theory, a duty to disobey, there is also a presumption of lawfulness of orders [1][2]. [1] https://ucmjdefense.com/resources/military-offenses/the-lawf... [2] https://warontherocks.com/2017/07/when-can-a-…

Rule 916(d) in the Manual for Courts-Martial, quoted in your second source, is really the pull quote here: > It is a defense to any offense that the accused was acting pursuant to orders unless the accused knew the orders to be unlawful or a person of ordinary sense and understanding would have known the orders to be unlawful. So for those non-military reading, while it's almost always a bad idea to try to sea-lawyer…

But that covers only the case where the accused obeyed an unlawful order. It does NOT cover the case where the accused REFUSED an unlawful order.

Re: South Korean president declares martial law, parliament votes to lift it

#653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You edited your low-effort take into another still unargumented low-effort take... I see that you are not new here so you probably know what to expect for your comment, HN doesn't look kindly of flamebait. I am hijacking your comment in the hope that you and others will read the link I post here from a military historian whose articles end up regularly on the front page of HN. It adresses the question of US foreign a…

> It adresses the question of US foreign adventurism and why the situation is different today. I.e why Iraq and Ukraine is not the same. It also give you a framework to think about international order. The Russian internet is full of well-crafted content like this, with the opposite view. Both are propaganda.

Except the piece in question isn't propaganda just because you say it is.

You need to provide substantiation for this claim.

Re: South Korean president declares martial law, parliament votes to lift it

#654
post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Do you think Clarence Thomas would vote against Loving v. Virginia?

This all boils down to something called "substantive due process", which goes back to a 1905 case where a New York law restricting a baker's working hours was ruled unconstitutional because there was no public interest in what evolved into an implied right to privacy.

Procedural due process asks the question "did the government follow proper procedure?" whereas substantive due process asks "does the government have an interest in this issue?"

So this was a key pillar in Roe v. Wade as the Court (theN) ruled that the government has no interest in what a woman does with her own body for the first trimester. As such, laws against abortion were unconstitutional. Critics at the time said there were other ways to construct a legal framework to protection abortion access.

Anyway, this implied right to privacy had all sorts of implications that the conservative judges don't like. Loving was based on both substantive due process and equal protection so it gets a little complicated.

Furhter complicating this is the Respect for Marriage Act (2022), which codified things like interracial and gay marraige.

But all sorts of rights we take for granted are built on substantive due process so as soon as the court dismantles that doctrine, the genie is out of the bottle. It's not that Thomas would necessarily vote to overturn Loving (particularly because of other complications mentioned above) but once you set the precedent, certain things become inevitable.

Contraception is probably the next thing to be under attack, particularly because there is an effort to define contraception as an abortion, both from a political and legal POV. Mifepristone will almost certainly be outlawed. Don't be surprised if the oral contraceptive pill also ends up illegal in red states too.

Re: South Korean president declares martial law, parliament votes to lift it

#655
post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm seeing his approval rating at 25% or so. https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2024/12/356_387448.h...

Awaiting the jump to 105% approval. ;-/ I wonder what the level of journalistic independences is in KR. What their public discourse is like. How truth, and opinions are tolerated.

Generally free + outlets like the NYTimes are based in Seoul.

Taiwan is more free than Korea but due its political predicament, it is not a candidate for the bureaus. As for Japan, after a series of controversial bills were passed under Abe, their ranking dropped like a rock over the past decade and it is getting worse with so-called "press clubs" that are reluctant to criticise the govt due to how access is granted.

Re: South Korean president declares martial law, parliament votes to lift it

#656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, it wasn’t all that long ago there was a coordinated campaign from the Republicans to paint Democratic leadership as colluding with Russia. Including a fabricated dossier, and the intelligence community unanimously and falsely declaring that Trump’s son’s laptop was a Russian misinformation plot and using that declaration to have tech giants and the media censor the story. No wait, I think I have that backwards…

Correct, they tried to make this a narrative happen through the Durham investigation and it failed miserably. Turns out the incoming and former president is deeply intertwined with Russian interests, a throughline of his presidency including his first impeachment

And you know this for certain, because the architects of the fabricated dossier and those who were willing to explicitly lie about Hunters laptop told you as much.

I assume it’s also Russian misinfo that a Ukrainian energy firm gave Hunter a board appointment and a million dollars a year, which he spent on crack and hookers and prolifically recorded himself doing both. It must be pure coincidence that the pardon Joe issued for him goes back 10 years to cover that period, in addition to the more recent tax fraud and firearms offences. Pure propaganda! I know it is because the bad orange man’s opponents say it is.

Re: South Korean president declares martial law, parliament votes to lift it

#657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not gonna happen in recent years, I suppose. PRC also needs US-designed and/or Taiwan-manufactured advanced chips. The possibility of war will ever decrease as long as more and more people wake up to the consequences.

Someone's not privy to how fast China is progressing nowadays. Americans are so ignorant on Chinese technological prowess right now. Chinese EVs are dominating every market in the world aside from US which has basically banned it essentially, otherwise we'd have very affordable cars in America. America banned DJI drones which owns about 70-80% of the world market on drones. China recently unleashed an open source AI…

Can Americans live without cheap goods from China? Yes, but those goods may not be easily accessible in a short period. The same goes for Chinese people. Although there are indeed alternatives, Qualcomm and NVIDIA, for example, still dominate the market, simply because they can offer the best product. And those alternatives, from my view here in China, still have a way to go.

War is not a joke, it does no good to both sides.

Re: South Korean president declares martial law, parliament votes to lift it

#658
post #559

Yonhap (Korea state news) : The National Assembly voted Wednesday to demand President Yoon Suk Yeol lift emergency martial law. Under the Constitution, martial law must be lifted when a parliamentary majority demands it. Of the 300 members of parliament, 190 were present and all 190 voted in favor of a motion demanding the lifting of martial law. With the motion's passage, the martial law declaration is void, accordi…

The President has said he will stand down martial law through the cabinet meeting. My understanding is that the parliamentary vote itself is not binding, but requires essentially a rubber stamp by the cabinet. They can decline to do so and the President wouldn't be legally required to stand down. Regardless, 190-0 is an overwhelming statement and if I was represented by one of the 110 absent members I would have a lo…

It is my understanding that some members of parliament were having trouble making it in. It is also likely that they took the vote as soon as enough members were present to be legal, instead of waiting any longer for all the members of parliament to arrive. Of course, some may have taken their time in order to avoid voting on it.

Re: South Korean president declares martial law, parliament votes to lift it

#659
post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The police kept the protesters out, but eventually let in most members of the national assembly and their staff after checking their ID. Martial law is about using the military to control civilian activities. The police are civilian. Their order is to maintain peace, not to interfere with people who have legitimate business at the facility. If Yoon really wanted to preempt the national assembly, he should have sent i…

There are reports and photos of actual troops in the building, and reports and photos of people who definitely don't look like civilian police leaving the building. I think the bigger problem with attempting to preempt the national assembly is that the troops didn't particularly want to interfere with people that had legitimate business at the assembly either.

Yeah, a few helicopters carrying troops touched down in the national assembly, but it seems they arrived too late and only waved their guns around half-heartedly. I think by the time they arrived, it was already clear which way the wind was blowing. They left soon after the vote took place.

Re: South Korean president declares martial law, parliament votes to lift it

#660
post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The police kept the protesters out, but eventually let in most members of the national assembly and their staff after checking their ID. Martial law is about using the military to control civilian activities. The police are civilian. Their order is to maintain peace, not to interfere with people who have legitimate business at the facility. If Yoon really wanted to preempt the national assembly, he should have sent i…

There were videos of Assemblymen jumping the fence around the building, so it looks like the police were not letting assembly members enter.

The blockade was rather inconsistent. Some entered through the gate, some jumped the fence. Some didn't make it through at all. But If the police really wanted to block the lawmakers from gathering, they would have guarded the fence as well. The police was clearly preoccupied with controlling the protesters instead.
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