The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community • Hacker News Board

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#651

Post by somerandomqaguy » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 1:51 PM UTC

Dalewyn wrote: post #597

somerandomqaguy wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No GP but I think they such rights cannot be absolute because the same right can conflict with itself. Say it's the 18 century with slavery is common. The slave owners are depriving the slaves of liberty and happiness. But the deprivation of the slaves liberty brings the owners happiness. If you cannot persuade the owners to stop depriving slaves of liberty, then there two options remain. One, you respect the owners…

Simple: A man's rights end where another man's rights begin. To use your example, the slave owner's right to pursuit of happiness ends where the slaves' rights to liberty and pursuit of happiness begin. A would-be slave owner cannot and should not violate another man's (a would-be slave's) right to liberty and pursuit of happiness. Going back to the subject of marriage, my right to liberty ends where my would-be wife…

>To use your example, the slave owner's right to pursuit of happiness ends where the slaves' rights to liberty and pursuit of happiness begin. A would-be slave owner cannot and should not violate another man's (a would-be slave's) right to liberty and pursuit of happiness

Except you've chosen to violate the owners right to happiness by attempting to place limitations on the rights that were so called inalienable. What you think the limit should be and what the slave owner thinks the limit should be differ.

Same right, but in this case brought into conflict by disagreement of interpretations.

Second, what happens when the other side refuses to stop because he believes that your interpretation is wrong? What do you do then?

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#652

Post by BeFlatXIII » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 1:53 PM UTC

Aerbil313 wrote: post #541

nineplay wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand what you mean, I grew up in a church with a youth group and group friends which I valued. However I also grew up with constant anxiety about sin and hell. It still gets back to me when my insomnia is bad. So churches and church membership aren't necessarily a net-positive. I too wish there was some sort of community my family could belong to. But I'm not taking my kids to church anytime soon.

Between Christianity as a false religion with its unintuitive teachings ultimately and rationally leading to atheism and the modern American way of life with its freedom extremism at the expense of everything elde, there's a third, albeit unthinkable to many, option: Islam. We're doing great in terms of societal bonds.

Two other contenders: Vedanta & Buddhism.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#653

Post by anon291 » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 1:53 PM UTC

elliotto wrote: post #440

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am surprised this needs to be pointed out, but people generally believe their religion to be true and do not find it at odds with reality at all. That doesn't mean you have to agree with them just because they believe it, but it is certainly not the case that religion is false in a provable sense, nor that religiosity is incompatible with valuing reality.

His point is a criticism of the role of religion as a community accessible to everyone; what if you don't believe in it? What if you can't? This makes the idea that everyone should just join their local church group a non starter.

I feel this is a very 'Protestant' (for lack of better word) view of the situation.

If you don't believe in it, you should just do all the actions and move on as normal. This is the 'liturgical' approach to religion and doesn't require belief.

I myself have confessed many times to my priest a lack of belief, but by virtue of the fact I'm there, I'm clearly still practicing. I mean, as a very analytical person, sometimes I feel very skeptical, and sometimes I feel as if God obviously exists. But either way, it doesn't matter because the answer is unknowable by observation, so it's a choice to believe or not. But even if my choice feels strained, being liturgical[1] about it still provides the same benefits.

[1] By liturgical, I mean, doing the actions, like kneeling, standing, bowing, etc. This builds community independent of any belief.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#654

Post by anon291 » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 1:55 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #251

the_snooze wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How do you square that with any sort of culture that values reality? Empiricism doesn't help you with the questions of "who are my people?" or "what matters?" You can make a legitimate case for some of religion's claims being empirically unsound, it doesn't take away from the fact that religion is very effective at giving a lot of people meaning and community, orthogonal to those specific claims.

It's arguably only effective if you genuinely believe the truth claims of the faith. There is this sort of strange very online revival of "trad" beliefs but you can literally tell that the people are trying to gaslight themselves into believing something they don't. Sort of a split-brain religion at best. Nietzsche's aphorism about God being dead was correct, as was his prediction about the future. Religion wouldn't…

It's actually 'okay' to gaslight yourself into believing something you don't. That is the basis of human society and mental health. I mean, everyone gaslights themselves into believing all sorts of weird statements on reality, such as 'my parents love me unconditionally' (realistically, there are probably conditions attached).

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#655

Post by harimau777 » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 1:55 PM UTC

stoperaticless wrote: post #587

theossuary wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the issue is pedantic people like you who can't understand that "want" is a simple way of saying that a system is biased towards certain outcomes. Capitalism is not an expression of human nature, it's a single possible pareto equilibrium. To say otherwise ignores huge swaths of humans history, and many modern nations which have achieved equilibrium in different ways.

I understand capitalism as “things can be owned and sold” + “you can profit from investment”. > it's a single possible pareto equilibrium I propose that those other equilibriums’ stability depended on at least one of these: a) small population size&density b) violent totalitarian enforcement c) indoctrination in caste system and/or religion d) no contact with capitalism > Capitalism is not an expression of human natu…

Both capitalism and socialism are spectrums of systems rather than single monoliths so any definition is going to be fuzzy. However, it's probably useful to specifically say that in capitalism specifically private property and/or capital can be owned. Generally speaking, socialist systems still allow personal property to be owned, they just place restrictions on the ownership or private property and/or capital.

It's also probably worth considering that socialism doesn't necessarily have to forbid ownership of private property or capital outright. It could, for example, mean that revenue/profit/income derived from private property or capital is taxed more highly than revenue/profit/income derived from labor.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#656

Post by BeFlatXIII » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 1:56 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #638

phil21 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mad rush to as quickly abolish religious practices in mainstream U.S. culture without any form of societal replacement is puzzling to me. I am no fan of religion having grown up in an exceedingly religious environment. But it was always completely obvious to me even as a child that the primary purpose of religion was to form local communities and have others with shared values to rely on. We seem to be doing it w…

This is all a very valid set of concerns; not quite a new one, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone (2000), but definitely a Thing. > The mad rush to as quickly abolish religious practices in mainstream U.S. culture without any form of societal replacement is puzzling to me. People need to acknowledge how much the downside of this kind of closeness was conformism, enforced by shunning (or worse) the noncom…

> A lot of religious communities have coped incredibly badly with the sexual revolution of the 20th century; if the only foray of your church into politics is against abortion or LGBT freedom

IMO, at least for Catholics, it is the Church's insistence that condoms and birth control are sinful that led to the mass defections from belief in the legitimacy of Church teaching. Yes, even more so than anti-homosexual rhetoric or the sex abuse coverups.

It's an attitude of "these delusional celibate people care too much about abstract deductive logic, not empirical observations."

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#657

Post by BeFlatXIII » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 1:57 PM UTC

anon291 wrote: post #650

pjc50 wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is all a very valid set of concerns; not quite a new one, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone (2000), but definitely a Thing. > The mad rush to as quickly abolish religious practices in mainstream U.S. culture without any form of societal replacement is puzzling to me. People need to acknowledge how much the downside of this kind of closeness was conformism, enforced by shunning (or worse) the noncom…

The sexual revolution is intrinsically linked to the lack of community. The sexual revolution is not actually about free sex. People have been having weird sex for centuries; with or without their partners knowing. What is novel about the sexual revolution is that it dismissed any needs for norms. Over the past two decades we've seen non-religious attempts to reinstate those norms (consent, kink, safe words, etc). Ho…

The Catholic sex abuse scandal was never about the actual abuse, which is presumed constant between religions. It was always about the coverup. Only the Catholic Church has the preexisting organization to pull off such a scandal; the others simply had controversial youth pastors who stopped showing up one day.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#658

Post by anon291 » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 1:57 PM UTC

zemvpferreira wrote: post #152

kelseyfrog wrote: post #82

Well, yes, we've doubled down on mediating social interactions through economic relationships. Most of the interactions adults have in their lives are with or in the framing of economic relations. Homes, are being invaded with tablets and mobile devices which bring along with them framing interactions as economic relations through ad and consumer frames. Workplaces are inherently settings of economic relations, and t…

True. I have personally integrated this idea fully by trying to hire/work with friends and family whenever possible. After years trying to see people weekly and failing miserably, this is best hack I have found. Caveat emptor, takes discipline and patience from everyone but it's great to see loved ones daily, fully engaged in a project. It helps that I can afford to have hobby businesses.

Tell me more? You own businesses and hire your family / friends to work in them?

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#659

Post by harimau777 » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 1:58 PM UTC

7thaccount wrote: post #640

arresin wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And now the pitch.

They're not wrong. Late stage capitalism sucks, but the alternative systems out there seem to lead to mass starvation or total collapse. People have been lifted out of poverty worldwide as well. Some kind of balance seems necessary.

The welfare states of Western Europe and the Nordic countries seem much better than America's system of late stage capitalism and they have not lead to mass starvation or total collapse.

Likewise, America's economy seemed to be much more healthy when it had a more active/successful labor movement.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#660

Post by harimau777 » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 2:00 PM UTC

parineum wrote: post #569

theossuary wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the issue is pedantic people like you who can't understand that "want" is a simple way of saying that a system is biased towards certain outcomes. Capitalism is not an expression of human nature, it's a single possible pareto equilibrium. To say otherwise ignores huge swaths of humans history, and many modern nations which have achieved equilibrium in different ways.

Capitalism is a system built by people that recognize that humans are reliably selfish and seeks to align their selfish interests as best as it can with the rest of the populous. No nation has ever achieved equilibrium but we are enjoying the most peaceful times in history during a time after the previous wave of capitalism-alternatives failed miserably or acquiesced. Just about every measure of human flourishing is…

That's simply not true. Democratic Socialism/Social Democracy has been very successful.

It's also quite possible that humanity can eventually find a new system that works better than capitalism. After all it took thousands of years for humanity to find capitalism.