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'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

aljazeera.com

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Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#651

Post by dang »

pbadams wrote: post #557
dang wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you're of course right—and at the same time, if I ask myself how to follow HN's core principle [1] in relation to this topic, I can't see "don't touch it at all" as right either. It may be an impossible quandary—but it's not in the spirit of this place to take an easy way out; or to put it differently, the easy way out (if one exists) is not in the spirit of this place. What does "curiosity" mean in a context li…

I think you might be right that encouraging curious discussion of these topics is important to the mission of HN. However, if the moderation approach is going to change, I think it would be better to do so explicitly through changes to the site guidelines rather than in an ad-hoc way. I don't think that this article is covering an 'interesting _new_ phenomenon' (emph. mine) as discussed in the guidelines, and indeed…

It's not ad hoc, although I realize it looks that way, because the guidelines only cover a few of the principles we go by. The rest are described in the endless (and admittedly rather tedious) stream of moderation comments that I put out, which is why I link to HN Search queries so much.

It won't work to add all of them to the guidelines list because that would make the list so long that few would read it, and (worse) it would make it a bureaucratic sort of document that would be most out of sync with the intended spirit. In the long run I (think I) intend to compile those explanations into short (perhaps one paragraph each) glosses on the guidelines, and make it easy to link to.

As for most commenters not discussing the details of the OP: you're right. But that may be too much to expect in this case. To be able to discuss this topic at all without combusting is already a lot. That's also, btw, why I left my pinned comment open to replies (something I never do), and why the meta (why is this on HN, etc.) discussion is not downweighted the way it normally would be.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#652

Post by 0x457 »

adhamsalama wrote: post #215
jraby3 wrote: post #7

Just a reminder that Aljazeera is the state sponsored news of Qatar, a county that hosts Hamas leaders and is close allies with Iran. It’s not a valid news source.

Well, in that case, we should also ignore all Israeli media, US media, and all western media, since they all those countries committed countless atrocious war crimes throughout history, and killed way more people than Hamas will ever kill even if they existed for another 200 years. But no, you probably believe anything the IDF and Israeli media says.

I think the last good news outlet was BBC before NATO invasion in Iraq. Shortly after, it became a good propaganda machine and many other news outlets adapted their strategies.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#653

Post by nahumfarchi »

monocasa wrote: post #616
ido wrote: post #237

Plenty of Palestinians oppose Hamas and want peace and a free Palestinian state according to the '67 borders. These would be the equivalents on the other side.

I mean, even Hamas currently calls for the '67 borders in their charter: > 20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its reje…

That's quite a bit of selective reading there. Where you see "'67 borders", I see "Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea".

River = the Jordan River

Sea = the Mediterranean sea

=> calling for the destruction of Israel. But sure, we'll take '67 as an intermediate step.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#654

Post by epgui »

aluminum96 wrote: post #644

Al Jazeera is an exceptionally disreputable source for coverage on this particular issue. It's not just their primary source of funding -- the Qatari state -- but also their abhorrent track record of running stories with no factual basis (such as in the wake of the Al-Ahli incident). I can't point to anything specifically incorrect about this reporting. But you have to take a lot of primary-source-based reporting on…

> I can't point to anything specifically incorrect about this reporting.

Then your comment is a genetic fallacy. You're highlighting a potential motive or potential for bias, but without anything substantive to say.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#655

Post by Der_Einzige »

midasuni wrote: post #526
Levitz wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>When you're on the side of women and children, who lose in every conflict, everyone else gets confused because they expect you to pick one of the men's teams. So men don't lose in every conflict? Countries are "men's teams"? I'm sorry but this is infantilizing as well as brutally sexist.

95% plus of the time the war is decided and progressed by men. Very few women in the Israeli government, and none making decisions in Hamas. Same in Venezuela and Guyana, Russia and Ukraine, Sudan etc etc

Lots of women with power in Venezuela. Check yourself before you check others. Socialist regimes love to show women in power to prove how progressive they are.

I.e https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adina_Bastidas

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#656

Post by bjornsing »

nahumfarchi wrote: post #636
bjornsing wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Israel, as a state, has the moral duty to fight back and make sure this never happens again. This is often said and I’m sure often in good faith, but I always find it a bit unsettling. If by “making sure it never happens again” you mean stronger protection of the boarder going forward it’s fine of course. But if you’re referring to someone kind of offensive operation (as I assume most who say this are, since they a…

We've tried defense, didn't work out. Which laws of armed conflict are you specifically referring to?

As it’s not clear to me how this goal could possibly be accomplished I can’t refer to any specific international law. But the spirit of the law does not allow for the indefinite subjugation of a neighboring people, regardless of what some of them have done.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#658

Post by aluminum96 »

epgui wrote: post #654
aluminum96 wrote: post #644

Al Jazeera is an exceptionally disreputable source for coverage on this particular issue. It's not just their primary source of funding -- the Qatari state -- but also their abhorrent track record of running stories with no factual basis (such as in the wake of the Al-Ahli incident). I can't point to anything specifically incorrect about this reporting. But you have to take a lot of primary-source-based reporting on…

> I can't point to anything specifically incorrect about this reporting. Then your comment is a genetic fallacy. You're highlighting a potential motive or potential for bias, but without anything substantive to say.

I absolutely said something substantive. But I'll make it even more explicit: Al Jazeera has an untrustworthy track record, and their unverifiable primary-source reporting should not be assumed impartial.

This is only the "genetic fallacy" if you assume that the trustworthiness of Al Jazeera articles is uncorrelated. My entire argument is that this publication is systematically not impartial, and wants to convince you of a particular (Pro-Palestinian) position.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#659

Post by dragonwriter »

ZunarJ5 wrote: post #335
wahnfrieden wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I posted this perspective previously ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38071749 ) but it was immediately flagged out: https://libcom.org/article/voices-front-line-against-occupat... >I want you to know something else, which is that the Palestinian Authority and President Mahmoud Abbas do not represent us, the Palestinian people, at all. We reject authority and we reject Abbas and all his ministers. I do not know…

Additional friendly reminder that Bush Jr is responsible for Hamas. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/10/was-hamas-electe...

> Additional friendly reminder that Bush Jr is responsible for Hamas.

Israeli policy during the occupation is responsible for Hamas, and it existed before W had any foreign policy influence.

Blaming Bush for Hamas because he was somehow responsible for the elections happening is stupid. The elections happening was a good thing. Fatah stupidly rejecting the idea of a national unity government was a bad thing. Israel deliberately seeking to assure a Hamas victory by interfering with campaigning, and voter registration, conducting a targeted campaign of arrests of Palestinian politicians, and doing everything possible to make the Fatah-led PA look weak, complicit, and corrupt in Israel's favor in the immediate runup to the elections was horrible -- but predictable given the entire history of Israel actively promoting Hamas, from its founding, as a tool to divide Palestinians and assure that there was a public face of opposition less sympathetic to, particularly, the population of Israel's Western Allies (particularly the US) than the more secular nationalists of the PLO during the height of occupation, and Fatah as a political party once there was an entity to have political parties.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#660

Post by qwertthrowway »

ashirusnw wrote: post #604
xg15 wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The UN doesn't speak for the world, regardless of what they may claim. That might be true for Guterres but not for the GA. The delegations that voted were not directed by the UN but by their respective countries. No one forced them to vote for this. Israel itself gets its legitimacy from the UN resolution in 1949. > But why would anyone ask them to cease fire against an enemy that won't return the favour? My unders…

> so of course during such a ceasefire Hamas would have to stop the rocket attacks as well During which Hamas would regroup, recover, and then be impossible to defeat and then would go on to commit another October 7th What should in fact happen is another humanitarian pause allowing more hostages to be released but relief for civilians in conflict. Hamas is now demanding all Palestinian prisoners, i.e. those who have…

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