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Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

electrek.co

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Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#651

Post by jjulius »

someplaceguy wrote: post #596
sdfignaionio wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Having a software unlock for hardware you already have (but didn't pay for in the price). Fine. Tolerable, perhaps, but pretty far from fine. It's pretty shocking to me that people in our society build things and then deliberately break them so they can make more money. Is this really the best system we can come up with? We have built a society where what is plainly crazy is rational.

> Tolerable, perhaps, but pretty far from fine. It's pretty shocking to me that people in our society build things and then deliberately break them so they can make more money. Is this really the best system we can come up with? It's not as bad as it looks. If you think about it, it's basically a form of wealth redistribution. Rich people will pay the premium, which subsidizes the cost of the car for others. In other…

>Rich people will pay the premium, which subsidizes the cost of the car for others. In other words, poorer customers will get a cheaper car.

This sorta thing is usually done because retooling an assembly line so the car can have different features can be incredibly costly. It's often the case that all cars are built with the same features and the cost of this hardware is also included the price of the cheaper car with the features disabled. The "rich people" just pay a premium to have 'off' switched to 'on'.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#652

Post by forgetfreeman »

beachy wrote: post #617
forgetfreeman wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am very ok with building my own car if it comes to that. It's the cretins willing to actually go along with bullshit like this that are the problem.

People who are unable to build their own car are not all cretins.

Agreed. People who willingly purchase a vehicle that includes subscription fee for features built into the car absolutely are cretins however.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#653

Post by someplaceguy »

jjulius wrote: post #651
someplaceguy wrote: post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tolerable, perhaps, but pretty far from fine. It's pretty shocking to me that people in our society build things and then deliberately break them so they can make more money. Is this really the best system we can come up with? It's not as bad as it looks. If you think about it, it's basically a form of wealth redistribution. Rich people will pay the premium, which subsidizes the cost of the car for others. In other…

>Rich people will pay the premium, which subsidizes the cost of the car for others. In other words, poorer customers will get a cheaper car. This sorta thing is usually done because retooling an assembly line so the car can have different features can be incredibly costly. It's often the case that all cars are built with the same features and the cost of this hardware is also included the price of the cheaper car wit…

Still, there are only 2 options:

1. This scenario makes the car cheaper for the poorer customers, so they benefit from it. Or at least, it doesn't increase the price, so they get the added benefits of being able to upgrade their car more easily and cheaply than going to back to the shop to install the extra hardware.

2. Or, this situation makes the car more expensive for the poorer customers, but since they are much more price sensitive, it is very likely that they will choose to go to a competitor who actually sells them a similar car without the additional hardware (therefore cheaper), or without subscriptions.

Unless of course, there was a monopoly or cartel, but I don't think we are in that situation.

The fact that these companies are going in this direction, indicates that they are able to profit more in this situation, which indicates that they are providing more value (again, unless their customers didn't have a reasonable choice). It's not proof, but it's evidence that there are advantages.

That said, it's not as simple as I've just put, because sometimes it can be easy to trick people into making a worse choice for themselves in the long term, e.g. due to marketing, or buying things with credit or as subscriptions instead of one-time payments, for example.... which can definitely apply in this case!

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#654

Post by jjulius »

someplaceguy wrote: post #653
jjulius wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Rich people will pay the premium, which subsidizes the cost of the car for others. In other words, poorer customers will get a cheaper car. This sorta thing is usually done because retooling an assembly line so the car can have different features can be incredibly costly. It's often the case that all cars are built with the same features and the cost of this hardware is also included the price of the cheaper car wit…

Still, there are only 2 options: 1. This scenario makes the car cheaper for the poorer customers, so they benefit from it. Or at least, it doesn't increase the price, so they get the added benefits of being able to upgrade their car more easily and cheaply than going to back to the shop to install the extra hardware. 2. Or, this situation makes the car more expensive for the poorer customers, but since they are much…

>1. This scenario makes the car cheaper for the poorer customers, so they benefit from it.

Pardon my ignorance, but if the cost of the hardware is already baked into the cost of the cheapest options, which means they are paying for all of the hardware they have in their cars, including the hardware they can't use, how do they benefit? Cost, in that situation, is determined simply by the need to assemble efficiently. I can't see how the consumer benefits in that scenario by paying for something they can't use.

Responding to your edit:

>Or at least, it doesn't increase the price, so they get the added benefits of being able to upgrade their car more easily and cheaply than going to back to the shop to install the extra hardware.

Again, pardon my ignorance, but it feels disingenuous to call it "an upgrade" if the car already has the equipment, especially to be charged more to use what you've already paid for.

Am I crazy?

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#655

Post by judge2020 »

rvnx wrote: post #80
judge2020 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did they ever figure that out? > There are few federal laws addressing automated driving. So, Mercedes Vice President of Automated Driving George Massing tells R&T, “we will probably have to deal with each individual state.” But the company plans to accept legal liability for what the car does while Drive Pilot is engaged. As far as I can tell there still isn’t some webpage where you can submit a claim to Mercedes-Be…

In the opposite, Tesla sounds more like the type of company that would sue you if you claim autopilot brought you into a crash. Since they are technically right, as autopilot disengages before.

> Since they are technically right, as autopilot disengages before.

> To ensure our statistics are conservative, we count any crash in which Autopilot was deactivated within 5 seconds before impact, and we count all crashes in which the incident alert indicated an airbag or other active restraint deployed.

https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#658

Post by hunter2_ »

littlestymaar wrote: post #338
mgiampapa wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did the same on a Mazda CX5 a few years back, but it was a software only hack to get root first. I suspect the actual physical hardware modification line is the one that most users are going to be unwilling to cross unless they are in the "Download a Car" crowd.

> I suspect the actual physical hardware modification line is the one that most users are going to be unwilling to cross unless they are in the "Download a Car" crowd. Idk, hardware modification of the first Playstation that allowed to play ripped games became mainstream very quickly in my country (France) and you could even go to some shops that sold Playstations to get it done. It only stopped when it was made open…

By the time I got around to booting "backup" discs in that system, it could be done just with a dongle (like a GameShark type thing, maybe? Can't remember) although unlike a soldered-in mod chip, it required booting with any genuine game and quickly swapping to any copy of another game, using a spring to defeat the lid sensor thus avoiding a subsequent check for a genuine disc.

Not quite as convenient, but lack of invasive mod was the tradeoff.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#659

Post by rconti »

bonestamp2 wrote: post #463
mgiampapa wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like we used to have cable box guys willing to sell you an unlocked box for premium channels, we are eventually going to have feature unlock guys that you go do and for a small fee perform some slightly more technical hack to enable features that are already there.

Be careful though, some automakers are tracking software mods and voiding warranties. Example: https://www.motorbiscuit.com/beware-dodge-challenger-mods-do...

One advantage of having blown through the warranty on my Tesla already!

On the other hand, I don't think my car has any unlocked features I want. I mean, I didn't pay for FSD / Autopilot but I'm not sure I'd use either.

Re: Hackers manage to unlock Tesla software-locked features

#660

Post by someplaceguy »

jjulius wrote: post #654
someplaceguy wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still, there are only 2 options: 1. This scenario makes the car cheaper for the poorer customers, so they benefit from it. Or at least, it doesn't increase the price, so they get the added benefits of being able to upgrade their car more easily and cheaply than going to back to the shop to install the extra hardware. 2. Or, this situation makes the car more expensive for the poorer customers, but since they are much…

>1. This scenario makes the car cheaper for the poorer customers, so they benefit from it. Pardon my ignorance, but if the cost of the hardware is already baked into the cost of the cheapest options, which means they are paying for all of the hardware they have in their cars, including the hardware they can't use, how do they benefit? Cost, in that situation, is determined simply by the need to assemble efficiently.…

I don't think I understand your question.

The customer can be receiving extra hardware and still be paying a cheaper price due to the assembly line efficiencies you mentioned, as well as the support costs of having just one new car model every year instead of 10 slightly different car models every year.

In other words, the additional hardware costs might be lower than the other cost reductions due to the increased efficiency.

Furthermore, even if the customer is paying exactly the same as before for the car (but now they are getting additional hardware which they can't use), it would be cheaper and much easier for these customers to upgrade their car if they so choose.

This would also mean higher profits for the car manufacturers, which allows them to reduce the initial purchase price of the cars to compete more effectively in the market.

And if it turns out that the car is more expensive due to having to buy the additional hardware, since these customers are price-sensitive they can just go to a competitor who would sell them a car without the additional hardware, therefore cheaper.

EDIT:

> Again, pardon my ignorance, but it feels disingenuous to call it "an upgrade" if the car already has the equipment, especially to be charged more to use what you've already paid for.

Perhaps that's because you're only considering the cost of the hardware and not all the other costs of producing and supporting all the different car models for every combination of hardware features each customer would choose?

I mean, yeah, sure, car companies could just sell a car with all the hardware features enabled and charge all customers the same, but then the price of the cars would be higher for those who don't need all those features, as the company wouldn't be able to charge higher prices for premium customers to subsidize the cars for the "poorer" customers.

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