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Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

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Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#651

Post by EvanAnderson »

helen___keller wrote: post #393

There’s a saying, on the internet nobody knows you’re a dog. WEI is part of a broader movement to make this false - more generally to make an internet where we know you are a human staring at a screen It turns out having dogs (or more commonly programs and scripts) on the internet is not profitable and not good for business, so corporations want to take dogs off their websites by finding clever ways to attest that a…

The whole narrative about WEI "proving" you're a human is completely false (and I'd argue a ruse). It only proves you're using a sanctioned OS and browser binary. It does nothing to stop robots being wired-up to devices w/ emulated inputs.

In fact, WEI will make it easier to use a robot w/ a sanctioned software stack since, hey, it's a "human" per WEI.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#652

Post by solardev »

matkoniecz wrote: post #640
slig wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less than 5% of global usage [1], and no presence whatsoever on mobile. Pretty much dead. [1]: https://radar.cloudflare.com/adoption-and-usage And CF stats doesn't depend on JavaScript.

4% of global browser usage can be described in many ways (defeated, miserable, collapse compared to the past etc) but it definitely is not dead and is one of few developed browsers.

If we're arguing about whether 4% global usage constitutes dead, then yes, it's truly dead and Mozilla is completely irrelevant. Even Microsoft is more important these days (again).

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#653

Post by [deleted] »

coldpie wrote: post #232
tomschlick wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FTC isn't going to do anything as Google/Alphabet is a big donor to the Democrats. https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/alphabet-inc/recipients?id=... Here is them lobbying specifically around antitrust reform legislation: https://www.opensecrets.org/federal-lobbying/bills/specific_...

So are Amazon: https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/amazon-com/recipients?id=D0... and Microsoft: https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/microsoft-inc/recipients?id... And yet we see high profile activity against them from the current FTC.

[deleted]

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#655

Post by JohnFen »

user3939382 wrote: post #399
wasmy wrote: post #15

Another tame article in The Register: https://www.theregister.com/2023/07/25/google_web_environmen... Despite the spec's half-baked state, the blowback last week was swift – in the form of a flood of largely critical comments posted to the WEI GitHub repository, and abuse directed at the authors of the proposal. The Google devs' response was to limit comment posting to those who had previously contributed to the repo…

If you want to protest the knife we're driving into your stomach, you can do so, but we need to see credentials and civility.

And limit your protesting to technical critiques about how the knife is made, not whether it should be in your stomach.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#656

Post by mlyle »

nordsieck wrote: post #648
ascendantlogic wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mozilla is dead as a doornail. Google succeeded where Microsoft did not, they essentially control the entire web now.

> Google succeeded where Microsoft did not Microsoft wasn't trying to control the web; they were trying to hobble it so that everyone kept on developing for win32. In retrospect, not a great strategy, but many companies try to kick the can down the road, and it often works, so I can't fault them too much.

Eh-- I think that 2-3 years of breathing room they bought-- and killing Netscape's "the browser is the operating system" dreams-- was probably worthwhile from their point of view.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#657

Post by burkaman »

4oo4 wrote: post #576

Don't just comment and complain, contact your antitrust authority today: US: - https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/report-antitrust-violation - antitrust@ftc.gov EU: - https://competition-policy.ec.europa.eu/antitrust/contact_en - comp-greffe-antitrust@ec.europa.eu UK: - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/tell-the-cma-about-a-competition... - general.enquiries@cma.gov.uk India: - https://www.cci.gov.in/antitrust/ - https://www.…

Thanks, just emailed the FTC. It was a bit cathartic and now I don't have to be angry about this for the rest of the day, I'd encourage everyone else to do the same.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#658

Post by JohnFen »

AdamN wrote: post #133
fps_doug wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do, and I keep having those tiring conversations, but it's really hard to get the point across in layman's terms. I have enough friends in tech who stick with Chrome out of convenience instead of just falling back on it in case something actually doesn't work in Firefox. how do I convince tech illiterate people of doing this?

For the tech illiterate recommend Safari. For tech people, appeal to their privileged position and the importance of defending the web by choosing any other browser (or Safari). Both users can keep Chrome installed as a fallback - that will help with convincing too.

> For the tech illiterate recommend Safari.

That's only applicable to Apple users, though.

Re: Google is already pushing WEI into Chromium

#660

Post by burkaman »

hooverd wrote: post #604
4oo4 wrote: post #576

Don't just comment and complain, contact your antitrust authority today: US: - https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/report-antitrust-violation - antitrust@ftc.gov EU: - https://competition-policy.ec.europa.eu/antitrust/contact_en - comp-greffe-antitrust@ec.europa.eu UK: - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/tell-the-cma-about-a-competition... - general.enquiries@cma.gov.uk India: - https://www.cci.gov.in/antitrust/ - https://www.…

A customizable form letter would be nice to have, if anyone wants to jump on that. I'm not a great writer in that respect.

My email:

Google has proposed a new Web Environment Integrity standard, outlined here: https://github.com/RupertBenWiser/Web-Environment-Integrity/....

This standard would allow Google applications to block users who are not using Google products like Chrome or Android, and encourages other web developers to do the same, with the goal of eliminating ad blockers and competing web browsers.

Google has already begun implementing this in their browser here: https://github.com/chromium/chromium/commit/6f47a22906b28994....

Basic facts:

1. Google is a developer of popular websites such as google.com and youtube.com (currently the two most popular websites in the world according to SimilarWeb)

2. Google is the developer of the most popular browser in the world, Chrome, with around 65% of market share. Most other popular browsers are based on Chromium, also developed primarily by Google.

3. Google is the developer of the most popular mobile operating system in the world, Android, with around 70% of market share.

Currently, Google's websites can be viewed on any web-standards-compliant browser on a device made by any manufacturer. This WEI proposal would allow Google websites to reject users that are not running a Google-approved browser on a Google-approved device. For example, Google could require that Youtube or Google Search can only be viewed using an official Android app or the Chrome browser, thereby noncompetitively locking consumers into using Google products while providing no benefit to those consumers.

Google is also primarily an ad company, with the majority of its revenue coming from ads. Google's business model is challenged by browsers that do not show ads the way Google intends. This proposal would encourage any web developer using Google's ad services to reject users that are not running a verified Google-approved version of Chrome, to ensure ads are viewed the way the advertiser wishes. This is not a hypothetical hidden agenda, it is explicitly stated in the proposal:

"Users like visiting websites that are expensive to create and maintain, but they often want or need to do it without paying directly. These websites fund themselves with ads, but the advertisers can only afford to pay for humans to see the ads, rather than robots. This creates a need for human users to prove to websites that they're human, sometimes through tasks like challenges or logins."

The proposed solution here is to allow web developers to reject any user that cannot prove they have viewed Google-served ads with their own human eyes.

It is essential to combat this proposal now, while it is still in an early stage. Once this is rolled out into Chrome and deployed around the world, it will be extremely difficult to rollback. It may be impossible to prevent this proposal if Google is allowed to continue owning the entire stack of website, browser, operating system, and hardware.

Thank you for your consideration of this important issue.

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