Earlier quoted context omitted.
New buyers often have the ability to write off the purchase which gives them a substantial discount.
Write it off what?
If the car is purchased for a business you can write off the depreciation.
Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars
651–660 of 835 posts
Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars
#652Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree that it’s hard to represent groups accurately, but I don’t think your “person who knows what they’re talking about” falls reasonably within bounds of anyone’s “anti-car” definition. For one, it’s not actually an anti-car argument, it’s a pro-cycling argument and lots of Americans favor safer cycling without getting anywhere near anti-car. Moreover, every identifiably anti-car community I’m aware of (e.g., r/f…
I don't know of any such communities online, but in real world local politics the first example is more common. People who support things like bike lanes, bus lanes, and light rail don't describe themselves as "anti-car", but their opponents call them that among less polite names, so I'd argue it's the more mainstream definition of anti-car.
Yeah, I think we're talking about different groups. I'm talking about people who self-identify as "anti-car". I've never heard of anyone who uses "anti-car" as a derogatory term for others, but I wouldn't be surprised if they exist somewhere. Personally, it seems unreasonable to me to define "anti-car" as "supports other modes of transit"; "anti-car" by my definition (which I think is the main definition) requires emphatic opposition to cars.
Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars
#653Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think that outside of the US the reason is that _in most cases_ you just don’t need cars. They’re more of a hassle and take up a lot of space.
That's not at all true in the industrialized world. Gibraltar is maybe one place you might not need a car, it's a tiny country with a bus reaching everywhere. Yet there are 1444 cars per 1000 people. If you look at cars/1000 people though the US is top with 890 sure, but New Zealand, Canada, Finland, Austrailia, Poland, Italy are all above 750. France, Germany, UK, Switzerland, Austria, Spain, Japan are all above 600…
> _in most cases_
I'm in my mid 30s, lived in 5 different countries (incl. UK, Austria, Poland, Portugal) and use a car perhaps 4 times per month (cab, when I'm feeling lazy).
Again, I put the emphasis there for a reason: I'm not saying that we don't need cars _at all_. What I'm saying is that we need _much fewer_ cars and there are many people like me. When I need to take a longer trip, I rent a cab. It costs me a fraction of what I'd need to pay if I drove.
Owning a car is a bit like watching TV vs. YT/VoD: it's partially driven by habits (also generation, culture, social status). I'm not speaking in absolute terms here. With better infrastructure we could reduce the need even further.
Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars
#654Earlier quoted context omitted.
> We have 11 million cars on a population of 17 million. Yeah, but we have 23 million bikes. It's true that our public transport has been neglected. The privatisation of the 1990s was a bad idea in my opinion, and public transport should be run for the public good, not for profit. Like roads, it's part of the nation's infrastructure. And better public transport means less people on the road, which means less traffic…
All of that is true but it doesn’t seem to refute the parent’s claim that the American anti-car rhetoric envisions a nation where cycling and taking public transit to work is the norm because the Dutch have figured out how to make cycling and public transit faster than driving.
Isn't the hype more about the relative difference (I don't think most people are claiming NL is a utopia)? The amount of miles driven per capita in the US is twice as much as that of the NL. The percent of trips on bike is 25% in the NL vs 2% in the US. About half of all trips made in the NL are on bike, transit or walking. The other half of trips are made with cars. If the US suddenly had half the amount of driving per capita that it does now that would mean dramatic lifestyle differences on average.
Japan seems to have the least driving per capita of any wealthy nation (at least from the data I see), so maybe people should be using that as an example more, but I think a lot of people in the US really appreciate the physical protection that people on bikes often get in the NL (even if it isn't everywhere). It sends a different message about priorities.
In the US, even if you don't want to drive, that is often your only choice for most trips, whereas in the NL you can drive if you want, but it is easier to find an alternative. That is a 'car-oriented' mindset versus 'multi-modal transit' mindset. However, I am sure that the NL could still make many changes to reduce car ownership if it really wanted to.
https://internationalcomparisons.org/environmental/transport...
Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars
#655I am in Bangkok right now and while there is public transportation at every corner the air quality is still super low. I took this post as the rich are falling out of love with LUXURY cars. I got passed by a Lamborghini today while walking the streets and said to my friend, while everyone else was busy trying to snap pictures, that I would only be impressed if he could do his own oil change. I expect $tatus $ymbols t…
Also I will never give up my ICE vehicle back home, which is a 20 year old diesel that has 270,000 miles on the clock. I am an original hacker/tinkerer and absolutely despise the tech and guardrails included in ALL modern cars but ESPECIALLY the EVs.
Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars
#656I'm an aging millennial, but on a purely personal level, when I lived in a city with good public transit, I was a lot happier, most of the time. I really like stepping off the train and the bus and being on my own two feet, the walking exercise, not being chained to this thing I have to worry about. I hate driving, I hate parking, I hate owning a car--the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it…
Another aging millennial. I don't, and never have owned a car. But luckily, I don't only live in a German city with good public transport, but also in the city center. I hate driving, during COVID, I rented a car 2 times to visit my parents for Christmas, but I far prefer being able to take the train. Just the ability to read during the trip makes all the difference for me. Or for a longer trip, to sleep ;)
Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars
#657Earlier quoted context omitted.
I used public transportation (and cycling) throughout most of my twenties and only got my own car in my thirties. Public transport only works when you live in an urban area with good connections. Where I used to live, public transport was often delayed, or on strike. During winter it was annoying to have to wait in the cold for a bus or train that had 30+ minutes delay. And during rush hour the train and bus were so…
Yep, once I started cycling, public transportation became a painful exercise in constraint. I would even prefer to cycle through freezing temperatures on icy roads rather than cram myself into a train or on a bus. Luckily for me, the bike ride was a 20 minute commute for most of my 20s, while the bus/train would be 40 minutes, and a care would also be about 30-40 minutes with traffic. True freedom for me is the motor…
Motorcycling is also significantly cheaper than is owning a car. The average used car price in the US buys a top-of-the-line, brand-new motorcycle. Used (and even new) motorcycles can be had for significantly cheaper. The insurance and fuel costs are significantly less as well. A motorcyclist will have half the cost or even much less than that of a car owner.
I know people always respond that motorcycling is more dangerous than driving a car. I think you have to look through the statistics. For example, over 70% of motorcycle accidents are single-vehicle crashes - typically the motorcyclist failing to properly negotiate a curve or turn. Many of the remaining accidents are caused by high-speed riding. In my own experience, I've had normal encounters that were I driving a car would have resulted in an accident, but by riding a motorcycle I have the ability to easily maneuver to avoid the accident. A motorcycle is the most maneuverable vehicle on the road in terms of swerving, braking and accelerating. Despite those facts I have friends who act like riding down the street is a death-defying experience and are amazed I'm still alive.
I have an ulterior motive for advocating for motorcycles - electric motorcycles are becoming a thing. The Ryvid Anthem is under $9K and has a removable battery that can be easily removed and taken inside to charge using normal household current. It's going to be interesting to watch this market over the next few years.
Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars
#658Earlier quoted context omitted.
How is that a distortion? It seems like you’re violently agreeing with the parent that many people bike to work but far, far fewer than the majority (which is essentially what the American anti-car rhetoric suggests). > Imagine if even half of these people took to cars instead, it would be gridlock. There are 10 million employed Dutch (Statista) of whom 65% drive (Statista), so an additional half a million would be a…
The original poster claimed that car usage is the norm in the Netherlands, which implies that anything else is outside the norm, or unusual. This is obviously incorrectly. There are various other posts in this thread that also give statistics, and the number of car vs bike journeys is not so far apart. In a country that famously has more bikes then people, the idea that if half the bike journeys converted to cars the…
> The original poster claimed that car usage is the norm in the Netherlands, which implies that anything else is outside the norm, or unusual
This isn't a reasonable interpretation. "the norm" only implies that it's the majority mode of transportation (in contrast with the anti-car rhetoric). This implies that other modes are not the majority, but it does not imply that those other modes are particularly rare.
> In a country that famously has more bikes then people, the idea that if half the bike journeys converted to cars there would only be a ten percent increase in traffic is quite clearly ridiculous.
I mean, I showed my math--feel free to point out where I erred, but just stating "it's quite clearly ridiculous" is like putting your fingers in your ears and shouting, "I can't hear you".
Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars
#659Earlier quoted context omitted.
I used public transportation (and cycling) throughout most of my twenties and only got my own car in my thirties. Public transport only works when you live in an urban area with good connections. Where I used to live, public transport was often delayed, or on strike. During winter it was annoying to have to wait in the cold for a bus or train that had 30+ minutes delay. And during rush hour the train and bus were so…
Yep, once I started cycling, public transportation became a painful exercise in constraint. I would even prefer to cycle through freezing temperatures on icy roads rather than cram myself into a train or on a bus. Luckily for me, the bike ride was a 20 minute commute for most of my 20s, while the bus/train would be 40 minutes, and a care would also be about 30-40 minutes with traffic. True freedom for me is the motor…
Strong +1 on the motorcycle. I grew up around motorcycles (different country, and not urban neighborhood). But where I currently live I wouldn't trust other drivers enough to actually drive one.. :(
Re: Throughout the rich world, the young are falling out of love with cars
#660I'm an aging millennial, but on a purely personal level, when I lived in a city with good public transit, I was a lot happier, most of the time. I really like stepping off the train and the bus and being on my own two feet, the walking exercise, not being chained to this thing I have to worry about. I hate driving, I hate parking, I hate owning a car--the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it…
Hrm, I guess I _am_ getting older. Now that I think about it, I have owned a car for about 35 years. When I got the first one, used, it was $500. Insurance was high, but not insane like today (my children do not drive, as I can not afford the insurance). I recall that back then (we had BBSs, FIDOnet and USENET groups) it was still an item that gave you freedom. You needed it to visit people or go to the cafe which wa…
I'm from the same BBS/Usenet era and I used to be heavily into cars, now I can't imagine spending >$30k on a massively depreciating asset. I also hate how cars have become massive steel tanks on wheels.