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Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

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Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#651

Post by ldh0011 »

n0tth3dro1ds wrote: post #104
barneygale wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> BLM > Endlessly supported Black people are still being murdered by police every day in America.

[flagged]

> elevated for blacks because the commit more crime

True perhaps, but very misleading. Consider that blacks are far more likely to end up in jail (and for longer) for the same crime a white person commits. Consider that ending up in jail and with a criminal record puts someone in a situation where they're more likely to commit crimes in the future. Sounds to me like racial bias is creating a higher likelihood of the police encounters that may result in shootings occurring.

https://www.ussc.gov/research/research-reports/demographic-d... https://bjs.ojp.gov/library/publications/racial-disparity-us... https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2019...

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#652

Post by mahogany »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #618
standardUser wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If minority groups are "in charge", why is most of the wealth, corporate power and political power in the hands of majority groups? Obviously cultural norms change over time, and many ideas that were once fringe are now mainstream. But that doesn't mean that the majority white, straight, Christian(ish) majority in America doesn't still wield most of the power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U... Whites are nowhere close to being the wealthiest group in the US.

Median income is a very different measurement from "wealth, corporate power and political power" within a group, especially one so large.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#653

Post by yamazakiwi »

yamazakiwi wrote: post #641
goodSteveramos wrote: post #625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Advocating for those in power doesn't carry the same reasoning as advocating for those who are not in power Anybody could be in power at any given time. If your argument for why your group should be in power depends on who is currently in power then it isn’t valid because it stops being true as soon as you win. No idea what you are saying about stupid people. > my argument [“Advocating for those in power”] has nothi…

My argument has nothing to do with who should be in power.

I'll say it again since you edited your previous message to reply to the message following it, I wasn't arguing about who should be in power, or placing my chips in any direction. I was plainly stating that people will have different reasons for supporting the class in power vs supporting outside of that class.

Parent comment was stating that people who support the minority are using the same fallacious reasoning those who support the majority do and that is not true.

In the event the power changes, the people who supported the previous majority class might be the same or use the same reasoning but that has nothing to do with how both groups reason separately.

As an example, imagine it's The Great Depression, The Majority would say something like "Wow I really wish we had more food, I'm going to vote for this candidate who says that we'll get more food". In this instance the Majority is not tied to the ruling class, do you see how implying everyone is knee-jerk reacting is misleading?

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#654

Post by earth_walker »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #605
cleandreams wrote: post #553

I am old enough to remember the hippies and related counterculture(s). (I was very young.) This is something to keep in mind: the counterculture then was a place where people made a living. And the cost of living was cheap. You could raise kids on an organic farm, sell in the local alternative stores, have a live show on pirate radio. And pay your modest bills. Health insurance and college tuition was cheap. Jeez --…

Part of that, in turn, is the slow death of the American working class. This is a much harsher society economically. That is why you step over bodies in San Francisco's Tenderloin. It wasn't like that when I moved here (early 80's). But why are you surprised? The hippies pushed free love and drug use. The inevitable end result was more children without stable families and drug addiction. When you step over those bodi…

The hippies did not 'push' free love and drug use - those are themes evident in every generation's youth. It's what teens do.

In the hippies case, as the movement became more mainstream the establishment funded efforts to emphasize those aspects over the other, more socialist and anti-war aspects that were the basis of the earlier counter-culture.

Just look at the evolution in the music of the movement: protest songs of the early to mid 60s (Dylan, Sam Cooke, Simon & Garfunkle...) gave way to the commercially produced, glitzy psychedelic music in the late 60s. From Surrealistic Pillows in 1967 to American Beauty in 1970 and beyond it was basically about sex, partying, navel gazing and spacing out.

The message clearly became much safer and, as it happens, more profitable.

I've even heard one conspiracy theorist say that the change in attitude for many bands was orchestrated by 3-letter agencies to influence the anti-war movement, though I don't know how much evidence there is of that.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#655

Post by ur-whale »

narrator wrote: post #509
jjk166 wrote: post #484

If you only consume mainstream media then you may personally live in a society which lacks a counterculture. You strike up a conversation with the girl picking mushrooms in the middle of nowhere or you go to an underground death metal concert or spend a bit of time on 4chan and you'll find countercultures alive and well that you're just not part of. If you think a sense of sameness pervades the creative world then yo…

The way you know 4chan is the counterculture is every time someone releases a new generative art tool, 4chan figures out a way to do stuff with it that makes the creators have to restrict and/or shut it down. Like in the 1960s how the mainstream culture would whisper under their breath and point in shock and horror at hippies and try to get them banned from various public venues, and send mobs to beat them up, we hav…

> 60 years from now they might look like the good guys.

If they're anti Ukraine war, they already are.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#656

Post by throwaway894345 »

z3c0 wrote: post #474
throwaway894345 wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s only appears to be despicable to people who don’t understand statistics on a basic level (which, sadly, describes most Americans, even educated ones) or ardent racists who believe that “the race” supersedes “the individual”. Notably, we can correctly observe that black people commit more violent crimes per capita than other races without implying any of the following: 1. black people are biologically disposed to…

I firmly believe that you don't understand statistics on a basic level, and you've wholly demonstrated that in this comment by throwing around a bunch of "explanations" with no basis but your own intuition. So the irony of your opening assertion has a wonderfully humorous tinge to me, a literal statistician. Take your pseudo-intellectual trolling back to reddit.

The irony of ad hominem arguments and telling people to go back to Reddit (:

Maybe take some time to compose yourself, scan the HN guidelines, etc before commenting?

Enjoy your day, Literal Statistician. :)

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#657

Post by maxfurman »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #605
cleandreams wrote: post #553

I am old enough to remember the hippies and related counterculture(s). (I was very young.) This is something to keep in mind: the counterculture then was a place where people made a living. And the cost of living was cheap. You could raise kids on an organic farm, sell in the local alternative stores, have a live show on pirate radio. And pay your modest bills. Health insurance and college tuition was cheap. Jeez --…

Part of that, in turn, is the slow death of the American working class. This is a much harsher society economically. That is why you step over bodies in San Francisco's Tenderloin. It wasn't like that when I moved here (early 80's). But why are you surprised? The hippies pushed free love and drug use. The inevitable end result was more children without stable families and drug addiction. When you step over those bodi…

Birth rates in the US have declined since the 60s, mostly due to widespread availability of birth control.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#658

Post by goodSteveramos »

goodSteveramos wrote: post #506
spacemadness wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice try, but Republicans are doing a good job of that.

I have never heard a republican say something positive about white people. Can you give me an example? For the amount of dog whistling the GOP has done over the years the complete dearth of any explicit pandering to white Americans is actually shocking and deserving of a proper explanation. Great explanation. Very proper. Much explanation. Thanks for the example /s Arguments you cant argue against are not a “dishones…

lasftr: those are examples of dog whistles. They dont use the word “white” anywhere. The GOP has dog whistled for decades and the whole point of a dog whistle is that it DOESN’T explicitly pander to white people. Dog whistles are IMPLICIT by definition. I hope that clears up what I was saying. Thanks for trying to provide an answer my question: “Why do you think politicians never explicitly pander to white people?“

Edit: Not needing to do something is not a reason for not doing it. Do you have a hypothesis for why they wouldn't explicitly pander? It seems you adamantly refuse to address this monumental question.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#659

Post by teachrdan »

Dig1t wrote: post #613
teachrdan wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no contradiction in what I'm saying. It's the norm for media, especially film, to be produced about marginal groups. How many movies are made about mercenaries or hit men or fathers with "a certain set of skills" whose daughters are Taken? A huge number. The opposite is also true. How may TV shows, movies, or songs have come out in the last 10 years that featured a guy working in a cubicle making Excel sprea…

idk I never said anything about Jews, but calling people a Nazi is a great way to shut down conversation. I love Jewish people, I have many friends who are Jewish, I have no problem with their representation anywhere. In fact, I have seriously considered joining the Jewish faith. I am just saying if you go down the path of comparing religious representation in government, you are literally not allowed to have an hone…

> If you want to have an honest conversation about religious representation in government you will very quickly be labeled an anti-semite.

You literally said that you can't talk about how Jews (allegedly) have too much power in government. This is a classic anti-semitic trope. To say so and then respond with

> idk I never said anything about Jews, but calling people a Nazi is a great way to shut down conversation.

is dishonest and cowardly.

> I see Pride stickers and representation in all forms of media every single day for the LGBT community. How is that not what we are all living every day of our lives?

What is your conclusion? That pride stickers give people power of some sort? If that were true, transgender people wouldn't be 4x more likely to be victims of violent crimes.

Representation in pop culture is not power. Power is the ability to create and enforce laws, or the ability to not be shot and killed for your religious beliefs, as happened when 11 Jews were killed in a Pittsburgh synagogue -- killed by a man who followed neo-Nazis and white supremacists. Their killer would no doubt agree with you that "traditional" values were under attack, and that you couldn't even talk about it without being labeled an anti-semite.

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-pres...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_synagogue_shooting

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#660

Post by ur-whale »

Taywee wrote: post #585
ipaddr wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you grew up and are beyond the childness. Don't take that experience away from others.

It's not childish anymore. It's just angry and cynical. It looks less like the shit-talking edgy teenagers having fun being idiots like it was in 2007, and more like unhinged, hateful, contrarian paranoid schizophrenia. I wish the people on 4chan had the stupid childish fun that I did 15 years ago.

> the stupid childish fun that I did 15 years ago.

You realize you've just confessed you've grown old (and likely cranky)?

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