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Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

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Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#651

Post by Dylan16807 »

Aunche wrote: post #646
Dylan16807 wrote: post #635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hard to find good sources but Kuwait had a median household income of $40k. Meanwhile, almost 1 million workers make less than $300 a month, so Kuwait citizen families likely make a lot more than $40k. Yeah that sounds pretty unbalanced. > The purpose of money is a medium of exchange for goods and services. Giving money for the sake of nothing defeats the entire purpose of money, because you're giving everyone mone…

>Yeah that sounds pretty unbalanced. So how would that be different from Americans getting ~$12000 and buying goods from developing countries where workers also make $300 a month. >People get lots of things for "free", like infrastructure Infrastructure serves a specific purpose. Why should we give money to people for free when we can instead use it to build infrastructure? >What conditions do you think are important…

> So how would that be different from Americans getting ~$12000 and buying goods from developing countries where workers also make $300 a month.

I don't really know how to respond to this because we buy those goods anyway.

> Infrastructure serves a specific purpose. Why should we give money to people for free when we can instead use it to build infrastructure?

Every category of spending has diminishing returns. You'd never want to spend everything on infrastructure, or zero in any effective category.

> Welfare targets people who cannot provide for themselves, such as children and the disabled. We don't lose much productivity by giving these people money. Every able bodied adult should be expected to give back to society.

We also want to have certain standards for non-dehumanizing employment, and not everyone has access to jobs that meet those standards. Basic income is a way to help that situation a lot, but do you have better ideas?

Also how much productivity do we need to demand from everyone? Somehow a century after establishing 40 hours, with productivity per hour skyrocketing over that time, we're demanding more than 40 hours from so many workers just to make ends meet.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#652

Post by tekknik »

staticassertion wrote: post #517
bwb wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get it... why not raise minimum wages to reflect local cost of living? IE, why tax all of us instead of the businesses not paying enough for their employees?

> why tax all of us Because it impacts all of us. Imagine the impact on crime and homelessness if there were UBI. Quality of life would improve for everyone . I'm happy to pay my taxes if it goes to that.

> Quality of life would improve for everyone. I'm happy to pay my taxes if it goes to that.

How? Why would it not just inflate us like all these payments during COVID?

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#653

Post by tekknik »

ozzythecat wrote: post #4

A link to the actual research paper would be helpful. In this experiment, what amount was given to the treatment group that received basic income? How often? How does that amount compare to the cost of living in their city? > ‘It’s sometimes said that people will sit around doing nothing if you give them free money.’ I’m not an academic, so take this with a grain of salt. If my job requires menial labor or involves g…

It quite well ignores that this only works with some subset of the population. If it’s truly universal, or even for the majority, then the net result will be nothing. We’re just moving decimals again to give people some idea they’re making more.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#654

Post by tekknik »

yurishimo wrote: post #369
parsimo2010 wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what it would do is balance the power a little toward an employee’s favor instead of a customer. Right now there are people that have no choice but to work these jobs. So a company can institute a “customer is always right” policy because it keeps the customer around and they really don’t have to consider their employees feelings- they are easily replaced. Customers only act like assholes because they can get…

Also, I think we've all seen the reddit threads about someone standing up to a rude customer and not getting fired. Those employers exist and seemingly are operating their businesses at a profit. Hell, we have professions now that demand respect (cops) and magically, the vast majority of the population seems to be able to grow up and not act like a child when confronted with an undesirable situation. I don't think an…

> Hell, we have professions now that demand respect (cops) and magically, the vast majority of the population seems to be able to grow up and not act like a child when confronted with an undesirable situation.

By law in most situations you must comply with the police officer. Not really the same.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#655

Post by tekknik »

padobson wrote: post #481
yurishimo wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which car washes are we talking about? Self service manual washes, or something more akin to a light detail that includes a hand wash? In the US, you can drive up and pay $1~/min and spray your car yourself w/ soap and water. You can also do the drive-thru option for about $10. On the upper end, you can pay $50~ for what might start as a drive-thru, but then someone comes out and does a manual touch up where the mach…

At $100+, you're looking at a hand wash and detail, potentially going up to hundreds of dollars for different aftercare options. It's also worth mentioning that you've jumped from menial to skilled labor at this point. There's a big difference between hosing off a Prius for the owner's commute and detailing a McLaren for an auto show. The latter is far more satisfying work.

Why is it a McLaren? I have a BMW and it’s around $80 for a quick vacuum, hand wash and detail. It’s not at all skilled labor and if I had a hose (I live in an apartment) I’d do it myself.

Those polishing cars for auto shows are quite a bit in a different realm and not what’s being discussed here.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#656

Post by tekknik »

staticassertion wrote: post #83
mjburgess wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends if you just end up paying people not to work. Money doesnt just have some "value" you can share like a pie. The value in money is just the productive capacity of an economy. If you're paying large numbers to do nothing, the value of that money plummets and people will starve. Recall: 50% of the country make less than the median wage... UBI is going to have to be way below this to preserve the very wealth w…

One thing that's been made clear in the last two years is that even a very very measly increase to unemployment can have huge impact. And unemployment runs out after a while, and the increases have been tiny. And unemployment makes you jump through hoops, is very stressful, and wastes a lot of your time. I expect that UBI could start off very small and still have huge impact. A quick search shows that median income c…

If people are getting paid $80k a year to do nothing Im quitting my job and living in the woods. 1 less software engineer.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#657

Post by tekknik »

noogle wrote: post #488
mjburgess wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends if you just end up paying people not to work. Money doesnt just have some "value" you can share like a pie. The value in money is just the productive capacity of an economy. If you're paying large numbers to do nothing, the value of that money plummets and people will starve. Recall: 50% of the country make less than the median wage... UBI is going to have to be way below this to preserve the very wealth w…

> Money doesnt just have some "value" you can share like a pie. The trillions of dollars printed by the Federal Reserve in the past two years beg to differ. Honestly, if the country is going into deficit, you might as well give it directly to people instead of injecting it via financial institutes. Society in general may greatly benefit from having people not HAVING to work.

> The trillions of dollars printed by the Federal Reserve in the past two years beg to differ.

The inflation we’re experiencing now wants to have a word with you.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#658

Post by tekknik »

goodpoint wrote: post #563
kuratkull wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currency exchange rates are bidirectional. You are arguing for people to produce less, so export plummets, which will bring down the value of the $, which means it is harder to import stuff you need.

> You are arguing for people to produce less No I'm not. > so export plummets, which will bring down the value of the $ No, if anything, it's the very opposite.

> No, if anything, it's the very opposite.

How?

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#659

Post by tekknik »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #412
respondo2134 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

then why are so many UBI proponents surprised when those who would bankroll this experiement fight it so hard?

It is expected, just disappointing. "I got mine, fuck you" is not exactly the kind of thinking we wish our fellow citizens engaged in. And for the record, I would appear to be in the group bankrolling it rather than receiving from it, and I'm completely cool with it.

> It is expected, just disappointing. "I got mine, fuck you" is not exactly the kind of thinking we wish our fellow citizens engaged in.

What it too to get mine, required very hard work and literally signing my life away for 4 years. Then, when I started gaining, I got fined for not having health insurance. Now that I can comfortably afford my health insurance and am starting to look at buying a house, here’s the left again saying I should help others, when I received no such help, and taking away the money I worked hard to earn. Imagine not having a degree in the software engineering field. The struggle is real, and if I can do it then what are others excuses?

No, I’m sorry, I will fight to force others to follow my path (albeit in a different field should they choose). I will not willingly pay for others to have an easy life unless they are related to me.

Re: Basic income would not reduce people’s willingness to work

#660

Post by tekknik »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #521
throwawayboise wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's the mindset. The mindset is, "I worked for what I have, you can do the same"

People with that mindset usually greatly overestimate the influence their work has on what they have and underestimate external factors, so pushing them to reevaluate may be a good thing.

So, people that worked and earned what they have and are compensated accordingly don’t deserve it?
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