Tech-savvy audiences block Google Analytics • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech-savvy audiences block Google Analytics

#651

Post by eru » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 2:08 AM UTC

tehjoker wrote: post #509

eru wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things like documentaries are mostly watched by already well-off people (mostly middle class and up). In Germany, public TV is paid for by (nearly?) every household. [0] Forcing everyone, including poor people, to subsidize rich people's taste for documentaries seems a bit.. off? Similar arguments apply to public libraries and opera houses, though at least there the financing is done mostly via progressive taxation.…

People choose from what is presented to them. That's consumerism. It's not like people get to pick what gets produced. If more public interest material is available and advertised, it'll get watched more. The alternative is to watch less TV and engage with society directly more. Both of those outcomes would be preferable to the excessive production and consumption of entertainment. Private broadcasters do not pick ma…

> The alternative is to watch less TV and engage with society directly more. Both of those outcomes would be preferable to the excessive production and consumption of entertainment.

I agree. And economically, if you want less of a good to be consumed, ceasing to subsidize its production with tax payer money is a good first step. If you want to go further, perhaps even tax its production.

> Private broadcasters do not pick material based on public interest or even their judgment of what is good. It is far more mechanical and influenced entirely by market forces.

How do market forces differ from public interest?

Or rather, what do you mean by 'public interest'? It's what the general public is interested in?

Market forces come from people.

Re: Tech-savvy audiences block Google Analytics

#652

Post by tehjoker » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 2:12 AM UTC

jandrese wrote: post #620

tehjoker wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember my professor talking about the ensemble approach the competitors were taking in a data mining class I took. I was saddened when Netflix ended up not using it because it was too slow and expensive or something.

It didn't promote Netflix content above third party content. Not enough control for the algorithm is unacceptable for the marketing guys.

Thanks! I'd totally forgotten the real reason.

Re: Tech-savvy audiences block Google Analytics

#653

Post by eru » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 2:17 AM UTC

tastyfreeze wrote: post #536

eru wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things like documentaries are mostly watched by already well-off people (mostly middle class and up). In Germany, public TV is paid for by (nearly?) every household. [0] Forcing everyone, including poor people, to subsidize rich people's taste for documentaries seems a bit.. off? Similar arguments apply to public libraries and opera houses, though at least there the financing is done mostly via progressive taxation.…

When I was first living on my own barely making rent, PBS documentaries were the most interesting thing on broadcast TV. Infinitely more entertaining than drivel like the Bachelor. Other than available time and offered free content I doubt preference of documentaries is different among income classes.

Social class is correlated with income, but it's not the same.

Similarly, entertainment preferences are correlated with social class (and with income), but again, they are not perfect predictors of each other.

So a few anecdata wouldn't undermine anything here. Though in fact, your example actually strengthens the argument I am making: you are the kind of person that prefers watching documentaries over other drivel, and you are the kind of person who managed to get themselves out of poverty. That's likely because you have the preferences, habits and skills of someone who is at least middle class in a social sense, even if your income took a while to catch up.

(Keep in mind that we are talking about social class in a rather abstract fashion here. German middle class mores are different from American middle class mores.)

Re: Tech-savvy audiences block Google Analytics

#654

Post by eru » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 2:17 AM UTC

tehjoker wrote: post #562

tastyfreeze wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was first living on my own barely making rent, PBS documentaries were the most interesting thing on broadcast TV. Infinitely more entertaining than drivel like the Bachelor. Other than available time and offered free content I doubt preference of documentaries is different among income classes.

It's crazy how many people believe being poor means you're stupid. Not true! Thank you for pushing back!

Who said anything to that effect?

Are you implying that people who have better things to do than watch documentaries are stupid?

Re: Tech-savvy audiences block Google Analytics

#655

Post by throwaway2048 » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 3:01 AM UTC

yunohn wrote: post #175

Nextgrid wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fraud would involve financially benefiting from it - if you don't benefit I don't think it would count as fraud in most countries.

Where did you get this notion from? That’s absolutely not true, and there are many acts that can be illegal without benefitting from them. I don’t think AdNauseum users would be prosecuted, but you’re still wrong. source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud

lots of acts can be illegal, but that does not make them fraud.

Re: Tech-savvy audiences block Google Analytics

#656

Post by nitrogen » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 3:04 AM UTC

eru wrote: post #650

nitrogen wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, when people complain about a growing wealth divide, and those who are doing okay financially say that childhood access to public libraries and documentaries made them who they are, shouldn't those things receive funding?

That's a bit like asking healthy people. You'll get answers ranging from things like exercise to homeopathy. Answers from people can be used to suggest avenues for investigation, but shouldn't make you fund expensive stuff outright. (Assuming here that homeopathy is obvious nonsense, that people still swear by.) And, of course, public libraries and documentaries don't have to just produce good effects. In order to ju…

Without US public broadcasting, I and countless others would have grown up on GI Joe instead of Mr. Rogers.

Further, I generally strongly oppose charity as a component of future plans (leaving aside whether charity is good or necessary in the present). We should never be building society such that it depends on the funding whims of rich philanthropists.

Sure, there should be some kind of analysis of benefits, but some things simply have to exist for a society to be a society, because without them, the loss of their intangible and second-order benefits will cause a society to implode Idiocracy style, and nobody will know why.

Re: Tech-savvy audiences block Google Analytics

#657

Post by nitrogen » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 3:08 AM UTC

eru wrote: post #651

tehjoker wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People choose from what is presented to them. That's consumerism. It's not like people get to pick what gets produced. If more public interest material is available and advertised, it'll get watched more. The alternative is to watch less TV and engage with society directly more. Both of those outcomes would be preferable to the excessive production and consumption of entertainment. Private broadcasters do not pick ma…

> The alternative is to watch less TV and engage with society directly more. Both of those outcomes would be preferable to the excessive production and consumption of entertainment. I agree. And economically, if you want less of a good to be consumed, ceasing to subsidize its production with tax payer money is a good first step. If you want to go further, perhaps even tax its production. > Private broadcasters do not…

Market forces come from people.

Market forces tend toward baseness. It takes active intent to elevate society above the lowest possible level. Just as one doesn't want to hire at the median skill level of their company lest the average continue to drop over time, a society has to aim higher than what the impulsive market optimizes for, or it will decay.

Revealed preference is just code for exploitation of vice.

Re: Tech-savvy audiences block Google Analytics

#658

Post by eru » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 3:37 AM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #657

eru wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The alternative is to watch less TV and engage with society directly more. Both of those outcomes would be preferable to the excessive production and consumption of entertainment. I agree. And economically, if you want less of a good to be consumed, ceasing to subsidize its production with tax payer money is a good first step. If you want to go further, perhaps even tax its production. > Private broadcasters do not…

Market forces come from people. Market forces tend toward baseness. It takes active intent to elevate society above the lowest possible level. Just as one doesn't want to hire at the median skill level of their company lest the average continue to drop over time, a society has to aim higher than what the impulsive market optimizes for, or it will decay. Revealed preference is just code for exploitation of vice.

'Market forces' are just what people want and are willing to pay for.

Of course, there are always enlightened and sophisticated people like yourself that know better what's good for the unwashed masses.

Re: Tech-savvy audiences block Google Analytics

#659

Post by eru » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 3:37 AM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #656

eru wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bit like asking healthy people. You'll get answers ranging from things like exercise to homeopathy. Answers from people can be used to suggest avenues for investigation, but shouldn't make you fund expensive stuff outright. (Assuming here that homeopathy is obvious nonsense, that people still swear by.) And, of course, public libraries and documentaries don't have to just produce good effects. In order to ju…

Without US public broadcasting, I and countless others would have grown up on GI Joe instead of Mr. Rogers. Further, I generally strongly oppose charity as a component of future plans (leaving aside whether charity is good or necessary in the present). We should never be building society such that it depends on the funding whims of rich philanthropists. Sure, there should be some kind of analysis of benefits, but som…

And I am suggesting we should do careful cost benefit analysis, instead of just assuming that our favourite pet causes will surely come out ahead.

Re: Tech-savvy audiences block Google Analytics

#660

Post by 3np » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 3:45 AM UTC

silon42 wrote: post #485

3np wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would an always on VPN, a remote pihole be the only way for privacy? Maybe for now, but it's just a matter of time until use of DoH to circumvent your attempts at redirecting DNS becomes more widespread as well.

Time to ban/firewall DoH then.

As it intentionally looks like HTTPS traffic, that's a different game; you kind of have to whitelist rather than blacklist.

Here's an idea that supposes you have some server available: Force all traffic over your network, even when roaming (VPN). Squid+Privoxy as HTTP proxy (your choice if you want to DPI and add own TLS CA as root on devices, in which case you can actually block it, or just do HTTP CONNECT). Optionally also set up a SOCKS5-proxy (microsocks). Configure all applications to go over proxy. Applications that don't support it can usually be "proxified" with tsocks or proxychains4.

Now you have more fine-grained control over your traffic. You can do fun stuff like setting up several incoming ports, several outgoing proxies (including Tor/I2P) and allow/block based on destination, domain, protocol, etc.

Finally disable outgoing traffic on your devices/route to a black hole. Or route it via your VPN at least, where you can do some rudimentary stuff with nftables/iptables. Oh, and something not everyone knows: you can route traffic based on uid/gid on Linux, so on your workstation you can leverage that too selectively control traffic on an application-basis.

On non-rooted Android and iOS, I suspect this is not perfectly achievable but if you have the time you can get pretty far otherwise. It's an arms race and I feel like we can keep up.