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NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

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Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#651

Post by reaperducer »

laingc wrote: post #639
reaperducer wrote: post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

while you or I personally don’t need the 100M to enjoy the impressionist art, you can’t ignore the fact that someone out there is in fact willing to pay that for the original. There are people who happily pay $10,000+ for an Italian purse. There are people who are happy with a $10 Chinese knock-off. There are people who happily pay $2,000 for an Apple laptop. There are people who are happy with Linux on a $100 machin…

> There are people who happily pay $2,000 for an Apple laptop. There are people who are happy with Linux on a $100 machine from Goodwill. This is the weirdest sentiment that I see all the time on HN, but enough people express it that I have to accept it as both widespread and genuine. However, I think that if you think $2000 US for an Apple laptop isn't the best value for money you can get on the laptop market, then…

I'm not disputing that a Mac laptop is the best hardware out there. I'm stating that not everyone needs it. They're happy with a $100 Goodwill laptop. I've always been someone who believes in using the best tool for the job at hand.

FWIW, I used my Trump Bumps to buy a new MacBook for my wife, and I plan to use my Biden Bonus for a new MacBook for me. (Assuming Apple releases one with a large enough screen in the next six months.)

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#652

Post by everfree »

roywiggins wrote: post #626
Taek wrote: post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blockchains are a shortcut to social consensus, not the final word. There is substantial value in the state giving credibility to a blockchain, allowing an NFT title for a house to be transferred digitally. That value does not disappear if the state + courts also build in processes for over-ruling the on-chain owner of an object and forcibly transferring it to someone else. The core value here comes from how much eas…

So now you have two ledgers: one on a blockchain and another one that's just "the court said X". They will diverge over time, and eventually everyone will just use the latter one, because that's the one that counts. Before I buy an NFT, I'll have to check the GovLedger anyway to make sure that NFT is actually that person's to sell, and hasn't got a lien on it or something else that means they can't actually sell it.…

The court, in making their ruling, could forcibly transfer the NFT, as it would make sense that they would give themselves admin status in the smart contract. So there's no reason the blockchain would need to diverge.

Regarding liens, it seems simple enough to say that if someone does not own an NFT "free and clear", then they cannot transfer it "free and clear". It might even be a different NFT entirely (a "liened NFT," where the original un-liened NFT is held in trust by yet another smart contract, with limited or conditional ownership rights given to the lien holder.)

The reason not to use a database is interoperability. Any smart contract can transfer these NFTs according to infinitely nuanced scenarios, and only during disputes would a court need to get involved and forcibly transfer the NFT according to a judgement.

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#653

Post by syllable_studio »

What people don't realize, is that we already have fantastic alternatives to Ethereum for low-energy, world-class decentralized networks with built in NFTs. My favorite is avalanche. This is all so new, but we CAN have a future that is feature-rich, fast, cheap, decentralized, and good for the environment.

https://docs.avax.network/build/tutorials/smart-digital-asse...

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#654

Post by everfree »

Kiro wrote: post #608

What prevents someone from creating another NFT platform for tweets and do the same thing? The tweet is only unique on the Cent Valuables platform, not on the blockchain itself. Or am I missing something?

There's an implicit social contract that the tweet owner (the "artist") wouldn't create a second NFT of the same tweet on a competing platform. There's nothing to enforce that social contract, though.

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#655

Post by knowaveragejoe »

dgellow wrote: post #252

Regarding the energy use: Since the 1st of March Cardano has native tokens (you can create your own token without the need for a smart contract) and multi-assets (wallets and transactions can contain more than one asset). The blockchain is using Proof-of-Stake and a full node runs on a raspberry pi 4. So it is completely possible to have NFTs without the massive energy consumption of Ethereum and without the very hig…

For such an intelligent(on average) audience, it really feels like people on HN stopped paying attention to crypto years ago and still think it is just bitcoin + some scammy alt coins.

There are other networks besides Bitcoin and Ethereum with very little eco footprint and billions of dollars invested.

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#656

Post by knowaveragejoe »

gfodor wrote: post #84

OK, so what happens if, say, the worlds energy demands jump 100x in 2-3 years due to out-of-control feedback loops like crypto? Energy prices go up. People suffer. There are two possible responses: - Regulation/laws to stop the feedback loop - Investment + deployment of new energy technologies to increase supply Will be interesting to see which of the two scenarios above happen, or if the fears of this crypto wave le…

The simplest answer is to move people towards the various networks already operating with very little energy consumption in comparison to bitcoin or ethereum. Cardano and Polkadot both operate on a proof-of-stake mechanism rather than mining.

It's like HN doesn't realize there's more going on in the space than bitcoin and ethereum.

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#657

Post by imtringued »

gruez wrote: post #612
bostonpete wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are easily mass produced, but the companies still limit the supply specifically so there is value for collectors

But the same dynamic exists with NFTs. The issuers can limit supply to ensure value for collectors.

Physical goods have a counterfeiting risk. Is it possible to use NFTs to prevent counterfeiting by verifying that a product is genuine? If not then they really have no use. Physical goods need verification but digital goods can be replicated perfectly. A "bootleg" is just as good as the original so no verification is needed.

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#658

Post by imtringued »

tshaddox wrote: post #648
roywiggins wrote: post #568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens when a judge says "no, the person who the NFT says owns the house doesn't, it's Bob over there"? When it comes down to it, the entry on the local tax rolls or property registration office is going to be the one that counts.

I don’t really get your point. What happens when a judge says “you don’t own your house any more, the government owns it now”? Well, what happens is you lose your house. The fact that the government can circumvent any notion of property ownership isn’t really a criticism of any particular notion of property ownership.

Yes this would also defeat the government's own ownership database/archive.

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#659

Post by knowaveragejoe »

baobabKoodaa wrote: post #647
knowaveragejoe wrote: post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I understand it correctly, that receipt in conjunction with your keys allows you to prove you own the NFT and can control it on the blockchain(sell it, trade it, etc).

> If I understand it correctly, that receipt in conjunction with your keys allows you to prove you own the NFT and can control it on the blockchain(sell it, trade it, etc). And one should be happy to control the receipt of their purchase of imaginary goods? Ok.

Currently, when it comes to Dorsey's tweet? Yeah I agree. But there is more going on and it will not always be "imaginary goods".

https://medium.com/treum_io/on-chain-artwork-nfts-f0556653c9...

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#660

Post by dmitriid »

keymone wrote: post #629
dmitriid wrote: post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an obituary, and you'd know it if you'd bothered to read it. It very aptly describes the perpetual state of bitcoin in particular, and of blockchains in general.

I read it, it’s an article from 2017 proclaiming bitcoin is worthless for a payment system while it is now 2021 and amount of value exchanged on bitcoin is more than ever. Author is clueless and the article is worth nothing.

> it’s an article from 2017 proclaiming bitcoin is worthless for a payment system

It's clear you didn't even pretend to read it. Or understand all the problems listed. Payments is just a part of the first article. The sequel doesn't even talk about payments.

> it is now 2021 and amount of value exchanged on bitcoin is more than ever.

Amount of value exchanged on bitcoin !== it's useful for payments. Actual payments (you know, for goods and services) are a very, very, very tiny fraction of exchanges.

> Author is clueless and the article is worth nothing.

Ah. So you didn't actually read it. Or you'd try to address the authors' points (or link to an article that addresses his points) like:

- The key feature of a new payment system is the confidence that if the goods aren’t as described you’ll get your money back (bitcoin has none, and is busy reinvents centralized institutions to help with that)

- The government-backed banking system provides FDIC guarantees, reversibility of ACH, identity verification, audit standards, and an investigation system when things go wrong. Bitcoin, by design, has none of these things.

- In terms of micropayments, people enthuse that bitcoin transactions are free and instant. Actually, they take about eight minutes to clear and cost about four cents to process. worse now. Median confirmation time is ~10 minutes (and was as high as 25 minutes just a few months ago [1]) and transaction fees ar $13 to $30[2]

^ And that's just payments

The article and its sequel go on to discuss the issues with smart contracts, distributed storage, computing, and messaging, authentity verification and so on.

[1] https://www.blockchain.com/charts/median-confirmation-time

[2] https://www.blockchain.com/charts/fees-usd-per-transaction

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