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Flutter 2

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Re: Flutter 2

#651

Post by EvilEy3 »

amelius wrote: post #421
jaegerpicker wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe because native apps are a better experience, nearly every time. True multi-threading, native code performance, latest UI implementation, more and better hardware access/performance, etc.... I can keep going but the point is that the web really is the lowest common denominator. That isn't bad but it also isn't how you build the best experience.

If OS vendors wanted web-apps to succeed, they could have done a lot more than they have done so far. E.g. better integration, or improved web standards to optimize for certain cases.

Why would they want that if they can build native SDK and won't be tied to anyone else?

Re: Flutter 2

#652

Post by oblio »

munificent wrote: post #571
oblio wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say you get a JSON API that sometimes returns a list, sometimes returns an object. How do you model that in Dart?

Yes, union types are really nice for data like that. But, in practice, a language's type system tends to optimize for the data structures that are idiomatic in the language. TypeScript is a heavily structural type system because idiomatic JavaScript often throws together unrelated types in this way (which makes sense when you're coming from dynamic types). In a language that is built more strongly on objects and stat…

What's the de facto web data interchange language these days? Used by every programming language out there, every language has a library to load it?

Re: Flutter 2

#653

Post by anthk »

OvermindDL1 wrote: post #507
anthk wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and it is janky as it can get, it feels like I'm using a 15 year old computer. Ironically computers 15-20 years ago with native software ran much, much much faster and snappier. KDE3, XFCE, even Windows 98SE and XP were much faster. They were crippled by disk I/O, true, but once the software loaded, the feedback was inmediate .

Just as a bit of counterpoint, I'm still running the same hardware right now as I was 12 to 15 years ago with KDE3, nowadays KDE5 is so much faster than KDE3 ever was. Yes I need to upgrade badly, yes I was planning to just a few months ago, but prices seem a bit crazy now, so I'm still continuing with my ancient but somehow still operational hardware.

How so? I tried Plasma 5 on Slackware -current on my AMD Turion and KDE3 (from a Trinity slackbuild) was much faster.

Re: Flutter 2

#654

Post by EvilEy3 »

Waterluvian wrote: post #287
yagodragon wrote: post #112

We're all complaining about how js is a bad language, tooling is a mess, and how the web is fundamentally built for documents and makes it hard to create app-like experiences. Now, Google comes and creates a whole new UI toolkit from scratch, couples it with a very beautiful SDK and component framework and offers a far better programming language than js could ever be but we're still nagging. I was also pretty disapp…

How many times has Google done this? And then gotten bored of their own work? JavaScript, with all its many many warts, is widely supported, incredibly popular, and not going anywhere. I'm not about to waste my limited weekend time learning Flutter 2, knowing it's going to be in the trash bin by 2023. I'd rather suffer through some more JS warts and get better at avoiding them.

> How many times has Google done this? And then gotten bored of their own work?

They're still updating GWT, so I'm not sure what you me by that.

Re: Flutter 2

#655

Post by masterofmisc »

csells wrote: post #629
jessaustin wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Flutter ... here] Currently I'm counting four or maybe five different HN users in this thread indicating this affiliation. I appreciate this open look into the organization. We're probably getting a more honest idea about what really goes into the sausage. Still, your PM might be less happy about this thread...

Actually, PMs love open, honest feedback. Keep it coming! Chris Sells PM, Flutter

Recognize the name! Interesting to hear you moved from Microsoft to Google.

Re: Flutter 2

#656

Post by idkwhoiam »

I tried Flutter but I just couldn't stand the Dart language. Building interfaces is a PITA too. Crazy nesting is unavoidable even if you split things up into separate methods/components. React Native is much better in this regard.

While Flutter works for mobile I cannot see Flutter for web succeeding. The latter will end up in the Google graveyard for sure.

Re: Flutter 2

#657

Post by EvilEy3 »

pier25 wrote: post #558
oblio wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Syntax, semantics, code organization and best practices, libraries, frameworks, debugging and debuggers, IDE support (preferably multiple IDEs for multiple platforms), LSP support, linters, profilers, disassemblers, dependency license checkers, dependency vulnerability scanners, package managers, package repository with support for private repos and proxying/mirroring, should I go on and on and on? Your toy app takes…

The fact is that even considering all those points, Flutter+Dart is still much easier to learn than Swift+iOS and Kotlin+Android (even separately). And I'm not even considering Desktop.

Sure, but you also get really powerful ecosystems with those languages. Which can't be said about Dart + Flutter, where most of those packages are amateur quality.

> Desktop

JetBrains Compose.

Re: Flutter 2

#658

Post by EvilEy3 »

jamil7 wrote: post #348
pier25 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dart is extremely easy to pick up if you've written in any C style language. Someone in our team had a small Android TV app working in 2-3 days with WebSockets, web views, some animations, etc.

Yeah but it’s usefulness is really limited and just feels shoehorned into the project. Why couldn’t it have been Kotlin or TS? Something that mobile developers or web developers could jump into and keep a bunch of their existing tooling.

JetBrains Compose.

Re: Flutter 2

#659

Post by EvilEy3 »

MongooseMan wrote: post #437
distances wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you would've needed to package a JVM or a JavaScript engine, making the app distribution a whole lotta different deal.

Kotlin doesn't just run on the JVM - it can compile to native binaries with Kotlin Native. It compiles to WASM and JS too.

At the time of Flutter development it couldn't do any of those things.

Re: Flutter 2

#660

Post by masterofmisc »

farisjarrah wrote: post #525
MrPatan wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

F: A few months ago I'd have said apps. Now after their latest spat with A, maybe they're having a think? A: web, for sure. That's how they make their money. A: I wonder how much money they would lose if they shut down their website? Would they sell their stuff on A instead? N: Who cares, it's only there to make the acronym nicer. G: Web.

What would Microsoft say?

Microsoft would try to make everyone happy by creating 200 different GUI tool-kits that do similar things on different platforms but with each one having slightly different syntax but giving you the capability of using different languages. If they targeted languages they don't own, they would extend the languages with Microsoft specific keywords!
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