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Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

bbc.com

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Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#651

Post by robin21 »

oh_sigh wrote: post #576
nine_k wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The underpinnings of the "cancel culture", the intolerance and mob mentality, were always around. The "cancel culture" adds two news things to the picture. One is the ability for anyone to participate, not just the few on the TV screen or newspaper pages. Another is the attempts at totality: expel the victim from every social media platform, every internet hosting, every payment platform, every public venue. It's not…

I think the inward-lookingness of cancellation is key here. Regarding attempts at totality, in the past, if you were cancelled, it was because you were group A masquerading in a group B world, and group B found out and kicked you out of B-world. But, importantly, Group B couldn't cancel you in the eyes of Group A, only in their own eyes. So if you were found out, your direct life got cancelled but there was frequentl…

> What is he supposed to do - go hang out with white supremacists?

Do you imply that the only groups in society are liberals and white-supremacists?

This is the problem liberals have...they have to get onboard with all the progressive stuff because they don't realize that everyone else is not a white supremacist as they are told by the NYT.

A lot of Trump support came from former Democrats who realized that they are no longer onboard with the ideals of the modern Democrat party pandering to the Progressives. These people didn't want a traditional religiously crusading Republican - they wanted opposition to identity politics and globalism.

There are good people in the center, and this Peru guy will be fine - but he should have realized a long time ago the NYT is not for people like him.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#652

Post by jtbayly »

dragonwriter wrote: post #587
jtbayly wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t matter. Either way you are not dealing with cancel culture. You are dealing with somebody who has gone on the record s as opposing the fundamental goals of the organization she works for. As I said before, of course you get fired.

Virtually every instance of firing or other institutional disaffiliation attributed to “cancel culture” follows the same pattern: someone—inside or outside an institution—complains to an institution (of those within it empowered to make decisions on this kind of issue) with an allegation that the institutions relationship with someone violates what they perceive to be the fundamental values of the institution, the in…

That’s like equating a cruise missile with a cap gun because “they both just make explosions.”

This comment is a fine answer to your ideas: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26311621

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#653

Post by cozuya »

cozuya wrote: post #556
jimbokun wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did you get hundreds of thousands? Even if that’s accurate, doesn’t necessarily reflect the opinion of the broader public.

So no examples then?

Not a single one? That seems strange. Its almost like "cancel culture" is really just "repercussions for my terrible views" but that can't be it, right?

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#654

Post by [deleted] »

konjin wrote: post #585
solosoyokaze wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the 1950's and 1960's, you kind-of had to tow the line in what you said, how you dressed, etc... The cancelling wasn't quite as broad as it can be now simply because it wasn't technically feasible back then. If you were not white, it was much more extreme. Up to and including being murdered. EDIT: The irony of this comment being "canceled". Does one of the down-voters care to comment on this? Is it not a known f…

Like usual you focus on the few dozen Americans that it happened to while ignoring the millions of South Americans and South Asians who were murdered for being communist. Which is the point of identity politics, and the reason why more black panthers were murdered by FBI sponsored police raids than blacks were lynched.

[deleted]

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#655

Post by solosoyokaze »

konjin wrote: post #585
solosoyokaze wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the 1950's and 1960's, you kind-of had to tow the line in what you said, how you dressed, etc... The cancelling wasn't quite as broad as it can be now simply because it wasn't technically feasible back then. If you were not white, it was much more extreme. Up to and including being murdered. EDIT: The irony of this comment being "canceled". Does one of the down-voters care to comment on this? Is it not a known f…

Like usual you focus on the few dozen Americans that it happened to while ignoring the millions of South Americans and South Asians who were murdered for being communist. Which is the point of identity politics, and the reason why more black panthers were murdered by FBI sponsored police raids than blacks were lynched.

Like usual? We're talking about the US. Yes, the FBI killed Black people. They're a fascist organization that should be disbanded. Far more Black people were killed by "regular" Americans though. It's not even close.

The communists also killed many, many people. No one is excusing that, but that's not the topic here.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#656

Post by LocalH »

hannasanarion wrote: post #433
jimbokun wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So...sounds like you are railing against Cancel Culture and thinks it's bad?

No, because the number of people who participate in an action influence its justness. When 1 person decides to make a new law, that's autocracy, and it's a bad thing. When a supermajority of voters decide to make a new law, that's democracy, and it's a good thing. When a couple dozen editors, CEOs, and DJs decided to end the Dixie Chicks' careers by banning them from access to all channels of outreach to the public,…

"Majority rules" is not inherently just or unjust, morality is totally separate from democracy. The world isn't black or white like your comment suggests

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#657

Post by [deleted] »

abecedarius wrote: post #475
keiferski wrote: post #9

I find it almost funny how the media/culture/etc. seems determined to build a group of people that will react negatively to so-called "cancel culture." They seem to think that people will gladly follow the ever-growing list of arbitrary rules indefinitely. If I were a betting man, I'd predict a resurgence in punk attitudes in about 2025 or 2030. At some point, the dam will break and people will stop caring. I already…

I think you're right about the pendulum swinging, but on the other hand the Victorian era lasted a lifetime. Moral fashions are hard to predict.

[deleted]

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#658

Post by sleepysysadmin »

cozuya wrote: post #649
sleepysysadmin wrote: post #646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I wonder what the OP means by "globalists" and "internationalists". Are there any other words that he or she could use in place of those? Hmm. Globalism is still there but is also dying. The problem with rebranding efforts is that it makes the subject difficult. In essence globalism was a failed attempt to destroy borders and have no immigration as a subject. Have just 1 global government and only 1 set of laws. The…

Imagine spending all this time and effort to defend your dogwhistle. Yikes.

>Imagine spending all this time and effort to defend your dogwhistle. Yikes.

You had a question and I answered in good faith. I accept your concession.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#659

Post by hannasanarion »

dash2 wrote: post #636
hannasanarion wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should maybe continue reading Mill, because nowhere in his writings, or those of anybody else who used the phrase "tyranny of the majority" prior to the modern age, believed that the solution was disempowerment of the majority and tyranny of the minority. Surely if you think that majoritarian tyranny is bad, you must also believe that minoritarian tyranny is far worse, right? Such as when a select few individuals…

I don't understand how your first paragraph is relevant. Nobody here is claiming that we need to end democracy! Similarly, nobody is arguing for a system where a few control the entire popular media. (And the current media landscape looks nothing like that: there have never been more different news sources available at the click of a button, and anybody who wants can start one up.) Lastly, again your third paragraph…

> And the current media landscape looks nothing like that

Yes, congratulations, you found the point.

The current media landscape is nothing like that, because the current media landscape is only about 10 years old. For all of modern history until the introduction of social media sites like youtube, twitter, and facebook, the only way to spread information or opinion was to get the editors of for-profit media companies to agree to publish you.

It is beside the point but also worth pointing out that also until very recently, like the last decade, the editors of those institutions have been of a very particular gender and racial demographic.

The new media, with all of it's "discourse" is democratic editorialism. Welcome to the freest market of ideas the world has ever seen. You can't call up your buddies Ailes, Rosenthal, Jordan, Sorenson, and Klose to tell the public what to think about you anymore.

> Lastly, again your third paragraph is a straw man.

We're talking about "cancel culture" here, aren't we? The phenomenon where members of the public decide based on new information to stop buying products because of the beliefs and actions of their creators? What is that if not the democratic free-market action that Mill so often advocated as the optimal way to organize society?

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#660

Post by hannasanarion »

int_19h wrote: post #506
hannasanarion wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should maybe continue reading Mill, because nowhere in his writings, or those of anybody else who used the phrase "tyranny of the majority" prior to the modern age, believed that the solution was disempowerment of the majority and tyranny of the minority. Surely if you think that majoritarian tyranny is bad, you must also believe that minoritarian tyranny is far worse, right? Such as when a select few individuals…

> disempowerment of the majority and tyranny of the minority These are two different things, though. You can disempower the majority without empowering the minority. Power is not a zero-sum game - you can disclaim it without handing it over to someone else.

So what, take the right of speech away from everybody? If the majority can't decide how the public feels about a person or company, and the minority can't decide how the public feels about a person or company, than who does?
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