Live data from Hacker News

Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

theguardian.com

651–660 of 667 posts

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EMV (chip/contactless) credit cards are capable of working without an internet connection, including PIN or device-based verification. Transactions get stored/batched on the payment terminal until the connection is available again. EV chargers often still require internet, however, as payment is via app or their own RFID card/dongle. Putting credit card readers directly on the chargers is a relatively recent (and not…

That may be theoretically possible but I very much doubt any retailers have that set up to work properly. Around here the gas stations still verify your ZIP code. Superchargers could also store transactions in theory but I doubt it actually works there either.

It certainly happens, very occasionally, here in the UK. You try to pay something with contactless but there's a long processing delay. The terminal will then time out and ask you to insert the card and enter PIN, and you will get something strange printed on the receipt like "CVM: offline PIN". You may then see the transaction pop up in your notifications a few hours later, or early the next morning.

Also, some merchants do offline or semi-offline transactions as a matter of course. London Buses, for example, accept contactless payments via bank card. But the transaction must be processed very quickly and the mobile data connection is not entirely reliable - the bus could be in a tunnel or a coverage black spot. So what really happens is the transactions are batched and processed at the end of the day (this also allows them to do some post-processing for multiple-journey discounts, daily price caps, etc).

Someone like London Buses isn't overly concerned about fraud because the transaction values are low. But they do have a way to blacklist cards numbers that are known to be bad.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An electrobike is a substantially lower electrical load than an electrocar. Many existing residential buildings can't handle adding a EV charging spot per unit (probably needs a 100A breaker each).

A Tesla gets about 3 miles from 1kWh. Average car in the UK does 140 miles a week, or 50kWh, or about 1kW of constant draw for 8 hours a night, or 4 amps. That's not an excessive amount compared with peak morning usage when everyones showers and dishwashers are starting.

The four-amp draw in your calculations provides the user a 12-mile operating radius each day. Somewhat to my original point: an electrobike is a much lower load than an electrocar!

This might be acceptable on average; theory in practice are the same in theory, but in practice they differ. A real-world user will require the ability to fully charge his electrocar on occasion, which means the fullbore 240V connection and a 100A breaker (potentially a 50A breaker depending on vehicle).

Assuming that every user follows average patterns will break the system.

Taking this idea out further, it speaks to infrastructure upgrades that will be necessary in order to power all of these electrocars. Estimates vary by region, power generation from automobiles as a fraction of total is somewhere between 10% and 30%, which exceeds both the spare capacity of the electric grid in aggregate, as well as often exceeding local transmission capabilities.

All-in-all, the costs of electrocar adoption are nonlinear: the first few percent of the population who adopt don't have to deal with the structural problems: a 100-unit condominium building can add two or three 240V chargers, the local grid can handle a handful of vehicles. At scale, however, major infrastructure upgrades will be required.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#653

I'm really curious to see how the used electric car market shapes up. New cars (electric or not) are pretty expensive. The average price of a new car in the US just topped $40k, which is out of reach of many car buyers. The people who buy new obviously tend to be well-off, and are often older. Then at some point down the road, those cars end up in the hands of (on average) younger, less-wealthy folks. But younger fol…

I'm a MT diehard (owned 9 cars in my life, 9 of which were MTs), and I'm trying to think what my must have feature is for an EV. Probably some sort of aggressive or responsive driving mode. I mean, the reason I go with MTs is because I love how responsive it is. I still giggle when I'm driving around at 4000 RPMs and punch the throttle to get that instant thrust. Even with manual shifting modes on automatics, it's no…

I think you should probably give it a try.

Every car I've owned except for a $300 beater in college was manual transmission (including a modified WRX STi) and my Model 3 Performance is much more responsive to the "throttle" than any of them. The speed of electricity is much higher than fuel pumps and gasoline. And the regenerative braking does a pretty good imitation of a manual transmission's compression braking when you lift.

Here's a quote from Car & Driver's review of the 2018 Model 3 P (which has since been made faster through software):

"This Model 3 needed only 1.4 seconds to leap from 30 to 50 mph and just 2.0 seconds to get from 50 to 70. Never mind other sports sedans—they're not competitive by this measure. This Tesla's mid-range acceleration tops the performance of 700-hp sports cars like the Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 and Porsche 911 GT2 RS, in which there's a moment's delay while automatic transmissions downshift and engines rev up. And the Tesla does it without drama beyond the alarming way it pushes you back into the seat as the car closes on any traffic ahead. There's no jerk and no roar—plant your foot on the accelerator and it simply goes."

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a23685454/2018-tesla-mo...

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A staggering amount of buildings are built to code, and nothing more. If code says that there needs to be 1.5 parking spaces per bedroom for the complex, and the complex has 80 bedrooms, you can bet there will be 120 parking spots. Apartment managers will be dragged kicking and screaming into offering chargers for cars. The best way to get chargers into apartment buildings is going to be a local mandate that they hav…

I disagree with this. Retro installs maybe, yes. But new construction, which I consult heavily on, most of the developers I work with are motivated to install them. They’re revenue sources and attract the kind of tenants they want occupying their new building. The answer to retro installs (which is always about money anyway) is to not force the hand of property owners, but make the install cost a no brainer with tax…

“ They’re revenue sources and attract the kind of tenants they want occupying their new building.”

This a huge problem. They mainly want to install them to gouge people. To attract people it needs done at cost.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm merely making an in my view commonsense point. ICE engines are carefully regulated worldwide, certainly in any nation which would consider mandating a transition to electric vehicles. Subsidies and gasoline taxes encourage societal transition to make transportation as efficient as possible, without mandating a full phase out of gasoline as a power source. Renewables have scalability issues. Grid scale renewable e…

"ICE engines are carefully regulated worldwide" ...Volkswagen would like to have a word :D

Indeed. Also Fiat Chrysler, Nissan, Renault, and Mercedez-Benz. Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Tesla gets about 3 miles from 1kWh. Average car in the UK does 140 miles a week, or 50kWh, or about 1kW of constant draw for 8 hours a night, or 4 amps. That's not an excessive amount compared with peak morning usage when everyones showers and dishwashers are starting.

The four-amp draw in your calculations provides the user a 12-mile operating radius each day. Somewhat to my original point: an electrobike is a much lower load than an electrocar! This might be acceptable on average ; theory in practice are the same in theory, but in practice they differ. A real-world user will require the ability to fully charge his electrocar on occasion, which means the fullbore 240V connection a…

One of my cars does 30 miles a day and is in the driveway from 1600-0730, so needs 10kwH in 15 hours, or a draw of 700W. 10 years ago the lights in my house drew about 700W.

The other car does 6 miles 3 times a week and is in the driveway almost all the time.

Sure, there are whales that do 300 miles a week, but that's not most people.

Looking at a sample of about 13 million vehicles that passed MOT tests in both 2018 and 2019, and thus reported the milage

Percentiles 20%: 2700 40%: 4800 50%: 6000 60%: 7000 80%: 10500 90%: 14000 95%: 17000

Lets assume that's all commuting over 5 days a week, 47 weeks a year. That means in an average 12 hour night:

20% of cars would need less than 11 miles of charge, or 4kWh -- 350W

Another 20% of cars would need less than 21 miles of charge, or 7kWh -- 600W

Another 20% of cars would need less than 10kWh -- 850W

Another 20% of cars would need less than 15kWh -- 1.25kW

Another 15% of cars would need 24kWh -- 2kW

All of that is less than a kettle, an average 13A plug is more than enough.

Now if those mileages include many people doing long distance drives at weekends and not regular commuting, the actual top-up needed every night isn't anywhere near as much. Some cars will do lots of miles at the weekend and need to draw the full 3kW out of a standard socket, sure. My kettle doesn't have an issue with doing that. For every car needing that full charge on a Sunday and during the rest of the week, there's a dozen that don't. OK, your battery might be down to 10% on Sunday night, but then you charge it to 20% for Monday morning, drop to 17% after your commute, charge to 27% Tuesday, and so on.

100A, or even 60A, house breakers aren't going to have an issue with keeping 95% of cars topped up, so you're at the next level. On the rare occasion you need to fully recharge really quickly, go to a specialist location with a 20kW+ charger. The data shows that most people won't need that most of the time.

Looking at newer cars -- ones made in 2016 (and thus having first MOT in 2019), you'd think they'd have a higher mileage. And they do, median is 8400, and 80%ile is 13,300, 95% 22700 -- about 30% higher in each bracket, but that's still well within a home charge range, even for the 95%ile, and only 1 in 4 cars are new enough to be in that category, so median mileage of all cars would be under 7,000 miles a year range.

You're right there's a grid level problem -- the dip in power generation in the UK overnight is about 10GW, which could sustain about 14 million cars - not too great when there's more than twice that needing power.

Assuming that in a given area cars are distributed fairly evenly as above, with some cars needing 24kWh a night, but others needing 4kWh, the average overnight draw would still only be 700W, that doesn't feel like it's going to trip neighbourhood substations, but further upstream could be problems.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#657
post #647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a sham unless you live there

You're not getting my point. There is no "do A or do nothing at all". It's always "do A or do B". So there is always an opportunity cost. Do you think people living near coal mines or fracking sites or whatever have it any better? Do you think that if we didn't mine lithium we'd all become noble savages* again and live in peace with nature? The objective is to minimize harm, choose the lesser of two evils. * This is…

I know what you mean but your opinion is convenient since you don’t live in a lithium mining town. Look up documentaries about that.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#658
post #647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not getting my point. There is no "do A or do nothing at all". It's always "do A or do B". So there is always an opportunity cost. Do you think people living near coal mines or fracking sites or whatever have it any better? Do you think that if we didn't mine lithium we'd all become noble savages* again and live in peace with nature? The objective is to minimize harm, choose the lesser of two evils. * This is…

I know what you mean but your opinion is convenient since you don’t live in a lithium mining town. Look up documentaries about that.

Now this is white knighting at its finest.

We're producing 77.000 tons of lithium a year.

We're producing ~7800 million tons (!!!) of coal per year.

You're either nitpicking for who knows what reason, or it's a bad faith argument.

Yes, lithium mining is bad for the environment. Yes, it probably sucks to be living in a lithium mining town. Yes, lithium is still the least bad alternative we have. Yes, people in those lithium mining towns should be compensated better and their lives should be improved.

There is nothing we can do as humanity, to absolutely, definitely, not harm someone or something. Life is a compromise and lithium is a huge step up from where we are now.

If you're saying otherwise, then go look up documentaries about coal mining, fracking & shale oil in general.

TL;DR: Lithium mining sucks but not mining any lithium sucks more. In parallel to mining more and more lithium, we should improve the mining process and also improve the lives of communities affected by lithium mining.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#659
post #91

I recently got a plug in hybrid, due to road trips a full ev is not great for me. The all electric range is so nice to drive. But it makes me realize how loud the ICE is after that kicks in, which now annoys me. I’m excited for when electrics will get a 500 mi range. It will happen.

How often do you actually drive 500 miles without stopping? My ass gets numb after 200 and _I_ need to stop. =)

Driving from SoCal to Utah or SoCal to Tahoe is a long drive. Adding in a 2 hour stop on top of that makes it that much more unpleasant. A quick stop or two for gas, bathroom and coffee is better.

And driving in remote areas on BLM land seems to leave very low safety margin with a tank less than 300.

Re: Electric vehicles close to ‘tipping point’ of mass adoption

#660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The four-amp draw in your calculations provides the user a 12-mile operating radius each day. Somewhat to my original point: an electrobike is a much lower load than an electrocar! This might be acceptable on average ; theory in practice are the same in theory, but in practice they differ. A real-world user will require the ability to fully charge his electrocar on occasion, which means the fullbore 240V connection a…

One of my cars does 30 miles a day and is in the driveway from 1600-0730, so needs 10kwH in 15 hours, or a draw of 700W. 10 years ago the lights in my house drew about 700W. The other car does 6 miles 3 times a week and is in the driveway almost all the time. Sure, there are whales that do 300 miles a week, but that's not most people. Looking at a sample of about 13 million vehicles that passed MOT tests in both 2018…

Commutes in your United Kingdom are much shorter than commutes in the United States. Average USA mileage is 13,500 miles, close to your 90th percentile.

It seems like your intuitions are correct for your country, and mine are correct for mine.

Post reply on HN