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Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

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Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#651

Post by SQueeeeeL »

Nydhal wrote: post #525
jeffbee wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what we call "revealed preference". It doesn't really matter what ten thousand Uber drivers have told you (and some of the supposed first-hand field surveying claimed in this discussion stretches belief). The only thing that matters in the end is how the participants in the market actually behave.

Actions > Words. Such a simple concept yet many ignore it. Nowadays it's trendy to call such concepts "mental models".

True! I use this concept a lot when arguing with people about minimum wage! I think those single Mom's should be happy to have a job, not complaining they can't pay rent! Like they can just learn to code if they don't want to make min wage

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#652

Post by zjaffee »

serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

This is a disgusting comment and shows an incredible lack of understanding around how labor rights historically have been both won and lost.

The further allowance of classifying people as contractors will only expand until companies can further use this as a tool to pay people less and avoid taxes (where based on federal judicial precedent, the healthcare premiums both individuals and employers pay are considered taxes under federal law). Today Uber drivers, tomorrow nurses and teachers, ect. Also people are absolutely being forced into working as rideshare and delivery drivers, the alternatives are often destitute poverty.

These companies had a long time to get their act together on this issue, they just decided that a capital strike was more favorable to them at this time.

Until we live in a country where healthcare is separate from employment, hiring someone on as a contractor just so you can avoid healthcare costs for them is absolutely exploitative (both of the law, and to the workers themselves).

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#653

Post by fidelramos »

CogitoCogito wrote: post #310
deminature wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The RideShareGuy is the most prominent blog for drivers and their annual survey seems to reflect that [1] >66% of drivers said they wanted to be independent contractors vs 15.8% who wanted to be an employee [1] https://therideshareguy.com/uber-driver-survey/

Assuming that poll is representative of the drivers' will at large, I guess then hopefully Uber and Lyft can satisfy these drivers by following the regulations required for them to be classified as independent contractors.

There is another way: laws should allow people and companies to determine their own terms for collaboration, instead of meddling with their freedom of association.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#654

Post by babypuncher »

tathougies wrote: post #286
babypuncher wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the economy cannot support enough reasonable paying jobs with adequate health insurance, then the answer is to re-think how the economy works, not create more garbage jobs that earn miserable livelihoods. If we did things like abandon employer-subsidized healthcare for a modern single payer system, then maybe it wouldn't be so disadvantageous for drivers to be classified as contractors.

Great, let's rethink how the economy works. AB5 does not do that though. It is actually a return to historical norms (in that it mandates foisting the institution of employment on something that is wholly new). AB5 is an incredibly conservative bill seeking to return to the pre-uber status quo. It is not a 'rethinking of the economy'.

I never said it was. I'm not defending AB5. I'm saying that the current situation is untenable, and neither of the solutions being provided to us do anything to solve the problem.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#655

Post by Zak »

jeffbee wrote: post #435
kyle_martin1 wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked for SuperShuttle developing their driver mobile app. I can tell you for a fact that a big reason SuperShuttle failed is because the drivers were independent. They would consistently reject low cost trips and wait it out until they got one "mega" trip so that they only need to actually work for about 3 hours/day. Some days they wouldn't take any trips, just hang out in the van playing Flappy Bird. This was a…

This is what we call "revealed preference". It doesn't really matter what ten thousand Uber drivers have told you (and some of the supposed first-hand field surveying claimed in this discussion stretches belief). The only thing that matters in the end is how the participants in the market actually behave.

I think what's happening here is the defined categories don't adequately model reality. An Uber driver is somewhere between the current legal categories of employee and independent contractor.

A fully independent contractor like a SuperShuttle driver can treat each fare as a separate contract, pick only the best offers, and generally not provide the company an adequate service level to ensure a reliable stream of customers. Each driver prioritizing their short-term interests keeps that model from being a viable profession in many cases.

On the other hand, an employer is required to provide certain benefits to employees, especially if they exceed certain thresholds of hours worked. To make the fixed cost of some of those benefits viable, the employer will usually want to require the employee to work specific hours, and often limits those hours to stay within legal thresholds.

It's the flexibility of scheduling I that I think attracts people to gig work. They'll take the ability to cherry-pick the most profitable gigs if given the chance, but it isn't a core requirement.

It's probably desirable to add a third category to provide gig workers some protections without shoehorning them into the employee classification, which many of them actively wish to avoid.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#656

Post by Retric »

mattmcknight wrote: post #642
Retric wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working 2 to 3 part time jobs is extremely common in the US for low level staff and has been for decades. These people say when their available and then get scheduled in.

Of course, but that is not what make them employees, but is actually the part of the criteria for being able to claim independent contractor status. If you work one game for a soccer league, it is highly inefficient to have to create an employment relationship.

My point was having 100 clients is a strong sign that someone is a contractor having 3 is not. It’s also just one of ~20 factors.

Also, length of relationship is judged on how renewable it is not how long it lasted. You can fire anyone on their first day.

It’s really a question of how open ended the work is not how long someone spends doing it. A restaurant always needs people to cook food and a league always needs a referee as an inherent part of it’s business model. On the other hand a company might only need an architect when designing their new office, aka it’s inherently a finite business need. That architect can largely work at a location and time of their choosing, the referee needs to be where and when the games are taking place. Similarly, an Uber driver needs to be picking someone up at a specific location and specific time going somewhere else or waiting 1 hour doesn’t work.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#657

Post by BoorishBears »

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #650
kyle_martin1 wrote: post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if you don't take trips then you don't make any money. They felt entitled and refused to adapt when the market demanded it. That's irrational.

In discussions like these I like to start from a basic premise: people aren't stupid. It's obvious to the drivers that if they don't take trips, then they don't make money. Clearly then, they've decided that below a certain dollar amount, it make more sense to them to play computer games than take a fare. How they arrived at that conclusion, I don't know. But I have faith that it made sense to them. I do very small s…

It's trivial to find out why looking at driver's posts online:

There's a minimum time cost to them for each ride or delivery. There's the time you spend finding out exactly where the person is, there can be a delay between jobs, there's delays when picking up an order.

Someone who drives 10 miles for one job will spend much less time than someone who drives 1 mile for 10 jobs. And since they have X units of time to spend in the app, they'll start making less and less per mile driven.

They also don't get paid for the time spent going to a pickup unless it exceeds a certain length: https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/24/16533940/uber-long-picku...

It's easy enough to see how, at some point, they start to get paid so little that it's in their best interest to just not drive and spend the gas and their effort

__

Here's a severe case showing someone go through that exact experience:

> I accepted the pick-up and app informed me that the customer was 13 miles away I drove there[...] pressed my App for the drop-off Destination [...] and saw that drop-off was 1 mile away

> Total time of trip, back and forth, 45 to 50 minutes and 29 miles , and I earned $8 dollars

> So, after thinking about it, I have decided to ‘decline’ all trips that are more than 10 miles away from me and do not say that it is gonna be a ‘long trip’

https://ride.guru/lounge/p/uber-drivers-how-far-will-you-dri...

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#658

Post by BoorishBears »

SQueeeeeL wrote: post #651
Nydhal wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actions > Words. Such a simple concept yet many ignore it. Nowadays it's trendy to call such concepts "mental models".

True! I use this concept a lot when arguing with people about minimum wage! I think those single Mom's should be happy to have a job, not complaining they can't pay rent! Like they can just learn to code if they don't want to make min wage

I can't tell if this is a joke or someone incredibly out of touch with the reality of poverty (this being HN, there are enough people who fall in the latter group to make it unclear)

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#659

Post by xapata »

plussed_reader wrote: post #578
goostavos wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things I don't miss about cabs: 1. them complaining about short fair or straight up driving off before I could get in because I wasn't going far enough (lesson learned in Vegas: get in before answering questions) 2. The constant, relentless dance about their "credit card machine being broken" "you can pay cash!" "there's an ATM machine inside" Uber and Lyft were god sends when I was traveling a lot for work. click bu…

>Uber and Lyft were god sends when I was traveling a lot for work. click button, get in car, arrive at place. None of the adversarial nonsense At the expense of the security of the drivers serving you. You get convenience, they get a subsistence lifestyle.

You think they'd have been that angry if they had a decent lifestyle?

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#660

Post by xapata »

meowface wrote: post #600
plussed_reader wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Uber and Lyft were god sends when I was traveling a lot for work. click button, get in car, arrive at place. None of the adversarial nonsense At the expense of the security of the drivers serving you. You get convenience, they get a subsistence lifestyle.

I don't want anyone working a job to live a subsistence lifestyle, but taxis have also always been a nightmare for me (in the US and every country I've ever been in) and I never want to go back. Uber and Lyft are vastly superior and less stressful experiences for the customer in every way. I'd like them to be good experiences for the drivers, too, but the answer isn't to scrap the whole thing and go back to taxis.

In some countries, the meter is just for show and every ride is a negotiated fare. Also, sometimes it's hard to distinguish taxi from pirate. Heck, in some places, even the licensed drivers are notorious for robbing tourists. Yikes.
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