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When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

hiringengineersbook.com

651–660 of 694 posts

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#651
post #3

A lot of this post seems pretty reasonable. But: In my experience, it’s fairly easy to judge technical skill. A friendly conversation about technical interests and recent projects can often be enough. Bullshit. Sounding credible in technical interviews is a skill, not the same skill as actually being a good programmer, and might even (statistically, in the large) be close to orthogonal to it. We found this out the ha…

>So, err on the generous side with your scoring, and down-select with interviews. Iterate until your interviews almost feel pointless. We got there!

I'm having hard time parsing this. First sentence suggests that I should be permissive in the scoring part, and rely on the interview to weed out candidates if we had too many. So interview becomes important. The second sentence says that interviews will stop being important. Can you clarify?

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disliking public transit is fine, ... and is something I didn't write, nor feel. The parent comment asserted walkability . If your environment is walkable , that means you don't need transit/carshare for everyday needs. Carson City has 4 bus routes Again, walkable means walkable without transit. My father lived there with daily needs within walking distance. SF is not only not the "only" walkable city, SF isn't gener…

Walkability in the city-planning sense is defined by "lack of need for a car". Improved public transit improves walkability (see the walkability scores on pretty much any site ever), as does mixed use development. Carson City has a walk score of 34 (although apparently there's a 4 block area in downtown that gets up to the mid 70s). SF has an average of 86. My apartment scores 99. Like I said, there isn't a genuine c…

Exactly this. New York City is the very definition of a "walkable" city because you walk to the subway, stand on the subway, walk to work.

Not because you live within walking distance of work, which almost nobody does. That definition of "walkable" would be so tiny to render it almost meaningless.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The difference between talking (very intelligently) and doing is huge To be fair it is environment dependent more than anything else. Forget competence, charisma, intelligence, and everything else about the candidate that could bias their selection and instead look at processes and code already in place the new candidate is jumping into. Does the environment strongly favor original ideas/solutions or does it dictat…

> Having gone through this myself it has taught me to ask very probing questions, as a candidate, during the interview. Like what questions? I'm assuming the work you're looking for is more along the lines of "wonderful solutions" as opposed to "task completion" - is it as simple as asking, "How anal are you guys about code syntax and whatnot?" and, "How hard are your problems actually?" Or is it more subtle than tha…

Here are some I thought of off the top of my head. These are based upon things I actually encountered.

What if I were to provide a solution that executes much faster, requires less documentation, passes test automation, and is a quarter of the code but ignores the framework or standard code style?

The standard DOM methods perform thousands of times faster than other options for interacting with markup. I can prove this with numbers. Code like that is not popular. Will I be allowed to write unpopular objectively superior code?

If I can reduce the application build from 5 minutes to 5 seconds will you let me rewrite the build from Java to Typescript?

A/B testing is a powerful way to determine preferential user behavior and a measured increase in conversion. Will I be allowed to write inward facing experiments to test developer behavior?

What if I provide a function as a solution the makes use of scope and nested functions but offers no support for inheritance?

Is it better to complete a task in 1 hour with original code plus tests or extend existing components with risk of regression and 4 days of effort?

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#654
i can't believe all of the replies to this thread. us nerds get a bit too myopic about the details and fail to see the forest for the trees. let's zoom back and look at the Earth from the Moon.

what other industry has hiring rituals premised on assuming The Candidate is a shape shifting imposter and then testing The Candidate using various Gom Jabbars to verify The Candidate is a human who can code? do attorneys and doctors and professors device elaborate exams and gotcha questions to spring upon The Candidate because The Candidate might be a total fraud? to be honest, this implicit assumption that The Candidate is an outright liar and con-man and that we have to "catch" them in their lies before we let them into The Club has been an enormous turn off for me in this entire industry. and i'm saying that both as The Senior Engineer put in charge of hiring developers as well as being The Candidate dozens of times and having to go through multiple Voight-Kampf tests to prove "yes, i can code."

why don't attorneys and doctors have the same problems we do? they pay more, so the incentives are there for The Candidate to rote memorize a bunch of text books and talk impressively while being unable to perform The Work themselves. is the problem that anyone can call themselves a Software Engineer and there is no way to prove it? is the problem inherent to the nature of software itself, in that the problems we solve and the solutions we apply are constantly changing ephemeral logical abstractions which cannot be repeated because every context has a totally different set of constraints, so it always reduces to Apples vs Oranges? is the problem inherent to the nature of Nerds and Autists and the personality types who tend to become software engineers? is being a Coder the Nerd's version of The Jock's hazing rituals? are we Nerds just as big of bullies and assholes as The Jocks, bullying our own and shaming each other against meaningless goal posts? we often hear now about how our Industry lacks "diversity" and how we need to be more "inclusive" to women and blacks. well how do you think women and black people feel about our bizarre and harsh hiring rituals of hazing and shaming and accusing of being The Imposter and your Interview test is to prove to us that you are not? i think we as an industry need to tone down our bullying hiring rituals if we hope to ever stop being an elite club of oppressors.

just last week i got rejected as The Candidate because i didn't have 10 years of React experience. "sorry, you're not senior enough", even though i had twice the number of years of raw dev experience than the punk kid over ten years younger than me who was in charge of hiring. i have seen this happen to me a dozen times, where i am rejected because i know too much about a Domain, and can go into gory technical detail about internals and implementations, which intimidates The Juniors who know one Javascript framework and think they are Seniors and who don't want a Real Senior around who might take their promotion slot away from them.

i don't even think in terms of "Junior" and "Senior" anymore. those are not useful buckets to divide the vast world of software development. instead, i think in terms of "what rad shit have you coded and what gets you excited about code and what kinds of things do you wish you could code or what do you code for fun on nights and weekends?" sadly, the vast majority of "professional coders" draw a blank at that question and they have zero answer, because for them coding is just a job. they never even knew it was For The Love of the Game. general interest and curiosity seems to be a better litmus test, because "interest is aptitude", and if you're the kind of brain who takes things apart for fun to figure out how they work and then try to put the system back together, then that proves you're a left-brain thinking INT(J/P) type of mind who is naturally suited for software engineering. the rest can be taught or learned on The Job as needed to fill in the gaps.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IQ is the best predictor of worker performance: https://www.businessinsider.com/why-your-iq-strongly-influen... SAT is an IQ test: https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/12/04/why-should-...

Allow me to provide a link from the NY Times article your shared. The TL;DNR: Nuh-uh! https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/12/04/why-should-... In the future, you really shouldn't link to dueling articles in an opinion section. It makes this all too easy.

One of those opinions is from a professor of psychology, the other sells test prep services for a living.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much would it cost to get a five bedroom, 3-1/2 bath newly built house in a top rated school system in Silicon Valley? That’s easily affordable with one income, with a family making the median software developer wage. Any competent developer can pick up the phone, call a few local recruiters and have three or four offers in three weeks. Of course the pickings get slimmer the further to the right of the bell curve…

I've never lived in SV, so I'm probably the wrong person to answer that. But your real question seems to be "how can I live exactly the same life as now, but in an expensive city", which - sure, that's probably not possible. But neither can someone in a cheaper area live within half an hour of, say, a major international airport and several world-class museums, and within a 5 minute walk of a dozen high-quality resta…

Well to give away where I live, it’s about an hour away by car from the world’s busiest airport, or less if I drive to the train station and then take the train directly to it - not exactly Small Town America.

None of the cities I listed are in what you would consider rural America. Yes we live in the burbs, but if living in the city were the lifestyle we wanted, we could buy a smaller condo for about the same price and I could still have access to the same job market.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#657
post #493
post #379

I love how firms have an issue hiring senior engineers, when the last few firms I've spoken with deemed me "overqualified". Another buddy with longterm CTO experience had 150 applications with a 2% hit-rate. On the "better" AngelList CTO/Senior jobs we can clearly see that there's already 50-100 other applications submitted. So is this really that big of an issue as presented?

constantly complaining about the job market being tough is a strategy for companies. they could have a 1,000 perfect candidates lining out the door willing to work for peanuts. At that point they would adjust their expectation from "peanut" to "half a peanut" and they would still moan about "skill shortage".

Similar to adding the words "bad economy" in discussions regarding performance evaluations and raises. Cop outs based on mostly arbitrary "market mechanics".

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More people are getting the day off but it's still less than half at 45 percent.

Downvote if you want but according to Bloomberg 4 hours ago that's the official stat.

Downvote facts. I don't care about the fake worthless internet points. It is just pathetic that people downvote actual facts without having an actual rebuttal or intellectual counterargument. Nope just be a coward and downvote because I don't like it.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Principal engineer"? Do you actually have an engineering degree? Have you formal education in engineering? What is system engineering? It's not just you; the entire IT industry is suffering from systemic curriculum vitae bloat. That's why the working conditions are so bad in the professional sense.

> What is system engineering? https://www.incose.org/systems-engineering

I know what it is as I am an actual system engineer; the question was for our self-proclaimed "principal engineer" to see if he has a clue.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#660
post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The higher you go the more compromises you have to make. That said, nobody is talking about disruption, just wisdom. It just so happens, sometimes that wisdom will tell you that shipping shit out the door in the name of delivery focus is going to cost you more than its worth in the long run. Calling them overly idealistic to justify your laziness just makes you look bad. I'd say a truly good senior can tell the diffe…

or... nobody wants to pay to clean up the mess. i know people who will do it. I will do it, but I can't clean it up, and delivery loads of shiny new features, and do it all while trying to justify every 30 minute block of time and asking if xyz is 'really' necessary. oh, and you also need to be able to answer some real questions about your own business process, because often your existing practices are just 3000 line…

I think this falls under the why are you hiring a senior?

Because hiring a senior to ignore the problem is a good way to waste a lot of cash.

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