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Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

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Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#651

Post by ryacko »

noobermin wrote: post #510
jakeinspace wrote: post #257

Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…

I don't think it has to be 1D. What I think reality is can be plotted in 2D: abrasive | | effective------+-------ineffective | | kind You're claiming is (and the common trope is) the actual distribution is in fact a straight line with a -1 slope (y=-x). I think there's a general possibility that the distribution is focused around the y=-x here, but there are outliers (imagine the line blurred out) with some wings esc…

He should only be angry at those who should know better. He often is set off by randos who only want to contribute.

So 2D is still too simple. It is like a horseshoe, one can be so abusive that the project fails because of it.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#652

Post by azernik »

BryantD wrote: post #562
azernik wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a delicate way to be both "firm" and "polite" - and that's to not be pretend to be "agreeable", but rather to separate the firmness on technical issues from politeness on personal description. That is, to say "this code is awful" while also a) going out of your way to praise the things co-workers/subordinates do well, and b) when it is appropriate to make general judgments on their performance, make i…

Much modern management theory recommends against the praise-criticize-praise format, FWIW -- I noticed this while I was taking a required management course at the Mouse. Everyone knows what it is, so you wind up dissipating the value of the praise because it feels like something that you're just saying for the sake of the formula. This comment is fairly irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Yup - that's the downside to any formula. I think it's more important, therefore, to understand the reasoning behind the formula so that you can play things a little more "authentically" and fluidly.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#653

Post by ozborn »

cdelsolar wrote: post #616
Cyph0n wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Euler, Al-Khawarzmi, Gauss, Darwin, Maxwell, Einstein, von Neumann, Fourier, Laplace, Aristotle, Ampere, Descartes, Kepler, etc. Linus does not fit in that list.

Why not?

He's not really a scientist - at least one as theory heavy as the names above.

However, his work with linux and git is at least comparable to that of other big scientific names known more for their engineering impact - like Van Leeuwenhoek. I'd also say the impact of Linus is greater, in part because of his insistence on making Linux GPL early on, rather than the secretive approach taken by someone like Van Leeuwenhoek.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#655

Post by danso »

explainplease wrote: post #648
CookieMon wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who has been lynched because of a Contributor Covenant, or other similar open-source code of conduct? The scope of the Contributor Covenant was widened in an attempt to l̶y̶n̶c̶h̶ harass and ban Elia Schito for an opinion he had expressed on his personal twitter[1]. Because Elia's twitter conversation wasn't connected with the project (beyond the project being listed in his bio), a new clause needed to be added to…

And this is how that creator is reacting to Linux's merging their CoC based on the CC: http://archive.is/6AyZy

How are you interpreting that tweet? I see it as the creator's tweet as being facetious, if ungracious? Seems she's pointing out -- again, perhaps ungraciously -- how anyone in the Linux community who was anti-CoC now has to accept that a CoC is part of Linux.

I'd like to think ideally she could come off as less snarky, perhaps. You don't actually believe she's referring to an actual conspiracy, right? Usually infiltrators, even the most gloaty of ones, don't call attention to their current effort to infiltrate something.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#656

Post by sirsuki »

I am very surprised at how many comments this story has gotten on HN. I am even more appalled at how many continue to excuse his actions in the name of "being right" or "technically valid".

This reminds me of the infamous [Wheaton's Law](https://everything2.com/user/OldMiner/writeups/Wheaton%2527s...) states: "Don't be a dick." A very sound piece of social expectation.

As comparison if I were to attempt to learn to be better I doubt I would have any luck with a mentor who swears and insults me irregardless of being right or wrong. I'm curious just how as people it is possible to excuse such behaviour. Does the end truly justify the means? And if so can the end be reach effectively with different means? If someone is a really good soldier but was physically abused as a child is the abuse justified?

I only try to illustrate some of the absurdity that (in my opinion) is the justification of the means in this case. I to suffer from social awkwardness. I often find things funny when in fact they are insensitive. I wouldn't claim that anyone is immune to social difficulties. However, I can say that there is evidence that approaching social interactions with some tact can lead to far better results then being bullish or rude.

Here is a quote from ["How to win friends and influence others" by Dale Carnagie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influen...): "Don't criticize, condemn, or complain. Human nature does not like to admit fault. When people are criticized or humiliated, they rarely respond well and will often become defensive and resent their critic. To handle people well, we must never criticize, condemn or complain because it will never result in the behavior we desire."

I'll close with a quote from the [four agreements](http://www.toltecspirit.com/): "Be Impeccable with your Word: Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the Word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your Word in the direction of truth and love."

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#657

Post by achiang »

geofft wrote: post #519
tptacek wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not just stubborn, persistent, and unyielding: he's performatively so. In his most notorious attacks, he's clearly playing to an audience. That could be the problem. He clearly can separate the blunt stubbornness ("we do not break userland, period") from the performative rudeness ("SHUT THE FUCK UP MAURO"). (I mean, to be clear: what the fuck do I know? I've never been in the position Linus is in.)

> He clearly can separate the blunt stubbornness ("we do not break userland, period") For what it's worth, he doesn't even avoid breaking userland. Off the top of my head, we had a problem at work a few months back where kernel 4.3 and below rounded up listen(fd, 0) to something nonzero, kernel 4.4 didn't, and a piece of commercial software was (inexplicably) using listen(fd, 0). https://ldpreload.com/blog/git-bisect…

> "we do not break userland, period"

That quote is more accurately read as, "we change things all the time, including user-visible features, and very occasionally, even in breaking ways -- but only because it's impossible to know every single consumer of every single quirk in behavior, and as soon as we learn that one of our changes did in fact break userspace, then we'll change it back".

It's how the kernel community attempts to continue cleaning up decades of tech debt while maintaining the contract with userspace. Honestly, sometimes you just don't know until you try.

It's an inefficient process, but it does sound like the right outcome occurred in this case.

signed, a former kernel developer

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#658

Post by tottenhm »

jakeinspace wrote: post #257

Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…

> Whether by genetics or through childhood, I'd bet people tend to cluster onto the line separating "agreeable and lax" and "rude but firm" (as a sweeping generality). We often label people who are all smiles while simultaneously extremely strict as passive agressive.

I often wrestle with these dynamics when trying to respond to community proposals, and I think there's a hidden variable: the cost of the time to respond. As a sweeping generality, the short-term cost of writing a straight "yes" (agreeable, lax) or straight "no" (rude, firm) is cheaper than the short-term cost of writing a "yes...but" or "no...but" (politely acknowledging the other side while critically discussing the merits of particulars).

Sometimes, someone can quickly come up with an explanation that is both incisive and pithy. That's awesome, and it's a good skill to develop, but (for mere mortals like me) you can't bank on it all the time. There will be scenarios which require a trade-off (time XOR quality).

I'd wager that those two clusters ("agreeable, lax" and "rude, firm") have normal people who are pressed for time. I don't think people are generally stuck in one of those clusters, but getting out... takes time and attention.

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