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Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

projekte.sueddeutsche.de

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Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#651

Post by valuearb »

ryandrake wrote: post #484
valuearb wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You still have double taxation because of dividend taxes. The US has one of the highest corporate tax rates already, as a country we’d be far better off making it zero.

Money is taxed every time it changes hands or moves around. When I get my paycheck, I pay taxes on it. Then, when I buy a ham sandwich, the shop owner pays taxes on it. Is that unfair "double taxation?"

We aren't talking about taxes on "money", we are talking about taxes on investment.

Investments are made to return profits, the more of the profits society takes, the less incentive investors will have to start and grow companies. So you should think about what tax rate you think we should have on investment.

Right now if you and friends start a business in the US, for every dollar in profit you'll first owe state income taxes, and federal corporate income taxes, which is anything from 35-45% depending upon your state. That's even if you re-invest every penny of profit into the business, into new jobs and higher productivity improvements. Why as a society are we reducing earned capital by more than a third every time it's reinvested?

Then, if you ever want to pay a share of those profits to your investors as dividends, now there is another 15-35% tax, based on state/income tax brackets. That's the double layer that means US companies lose at least 50% of profits and up to 70% to taxes before their owners get any.

Do you really think business owners should pay 50-70% of their profits in taxes? Then don't mind if some decide starting their business in a lower tax country makes sense.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#652

Post by mariozivic »

sseveran wrote: post #589
DomreiRoam wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we had a way to have a realistic transfer pricing we wouldn't have the result that we have now where systematically groups make the biggest profits in countries with low taxation. If we look Apple group, their most productive employee are all based in small island nations. So on an Iphone, conceived in the US, made in china, sold in EU the biggest share of the profits is made in Bermuda or tax heaven?

I don't see what is not realistic about it. We are talking about things which are incredibly difficult to value because there is no market for them to set a competitive price. In your Apple example the most productive employees are all in the US not island nations. If the money is being held by on overseas subsidiary then Apple can't use the money as it otherwise would if it could freely cross borders.

There was an article exlaining how they get that money back in U.S. tax-free. Something along the lines of geting a loan from the bank against deposit by their pardise subsidiary. Also, the money owned by the subsidiary is allegedly in NY bansk, not some small paradise banks.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#653

Post by valuearb »

TrinaryWorksToo wrote: post #518
valuearb wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is the biggest taxpayer in the world. It pays every bit of tax it owes. It should be taxed less, not more. Corporate income taxes are corrosive to maintaining our society.

I'm not going to argue whether or not it pays all the taxes it owes. I'm pointing out that if they have access to offshore accounts that most businesses can't, they gain an unfair advantage over those other businesses. If you want to remove corporate income taxes, it should happen at the same time, not selectively to larger corporations.

They don't "have access to offshore accounts that most businesses don't". They naturally earn most of their profits internationally, and pay taxes to the countries they earn those profits in. If they return those international profits to the US, they'll lose another 40%+ to taxes (closer to 60% if you count individual dividend taxes).

So they keep the remaining profits in the lowest tax country/location they can find while it earns interest. They owe Germany nothing more.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#654

Post by bonzini »

threeseed wrote: post #644
qznc wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My (ultra-simplistic) idea would to only tax land and VAT. Abolish all other taxes. Unfortunately, governments like fine-grained taxes because it gives them the illusion of control.

Your ultra simplistic idea has been tried before to some extent. It doesn't work. VAT is a trivial tax to avoid since it involves the business letting the tax department know how much tax they collected. So what happens is that they under report either (a) by flat out lying or (b) doing more business in cash or through a barter system. Also it is incredibly regressive rewarding the rich (who are generally hoarding mo…

Many countries have multiple VAT rates for different goods. Staple food and other basic goods, which constitute a larger part of a poor person's spending, are in lower rates.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#655

Post by valuearb »

cconstantin wrote: post #648
valuearb wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple pays the full tax. It pays huge amounts of taxes in Germany.

Well, that's not true: https://projekte.sueddeutsche.de/paradisepapers/politik/dear...

That article is clearly wrong. Apple isn't headquartered in Germany, it's not building phones or computers or software in Germany. It only owes Germany minimal income taxes, while it pays huge amounts of VAT, and employment taxes for store employees.

It's like saying Porsche should pay US income taxes on cars it builds in Germany because it sells them in the US. Porsche pays sales taxes, import duties, etc, etc, everything it requires. It's profits on it's U.S. marketing and distribution operations are minimal, so it should pay minimal US corporate income tax.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#656

Post by tmd83 »

styx31 wrote: post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

So much of this. This happens everywhere even when it's not in the form of a multi-national tax avoidance scheme. You can tell all you want that it's the fault of the law which it is but that doesn't change the fact the system is like this because these companies and people have over the years have done everything they can to make sure these loopholes exists and these loophole remains including outright bribing where they can get away with it. And for the most part no one individually did it and so you can't event point it out properly.

At least in my country individuals are often in even worst position in terms of taxes. The less capital you have the more you will be taxed seem to be the norm of the world these days.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#657

Post by libertyEQ »

threeseed wrote: post #644
qznc wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My (ultra-simplistic) idea would to only tax land and VAT. Abolish all other taxes. Unfortunately, governments like fine-grained taxes because it gives them the illusion of control.

Your ultra simplistic idea has been tried before to some extent. It doesn't work. VAT is a trivial tax to avoid since it involves the business letting the tax department know how much tax they collected. So what happens is that they under report either (a) by flat out lying or (b) doing more business in cash or through a barter system. Also it is incredibly regressive rewarding the rich (who are generally hoarding mo…

Given your comments, we seem to be similarly minded. What do you think about a wealth tax? To me, that would be the most appropriate given that incomes can vary year to year. Corporate taxes are a separate matter altogether, IMO, since corps just include their tax burden in the price of the products.

edit: What I'm thinking is some sort of total asset valuation placing one in a given bracket, rather than income level. While income tax is income tax, regardless of short-term/long-term capital gains (35%/15%, USA), or salary.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#658

Post by [deleted] »

culturalzero wrote: post #636
apendleton wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're acting like laws are an unmoving fundamental property of the universe. In reality these very companies have reshaped the laws to their own advantage. Companies that lobby on tax policy demonstrably pay lower taxes; see e.g., https://sunlightfoundation.com/2012/04/16/lobby-more-pay-les...

I wonder how many of these comments are made by Apple's legal or PR team posing as normal people... Certainly they have the reach and resources for this kind of thing too. Rarely do we get to have a real public discussion on such topics without adulteration by these parties with personal motivations and associated power.

[deleted]

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#659

Post by arshaanb »

You can’t blame the people taking advantage of the loops holes, you have to blame the countries which allow it, and then stop them, thus putting all business owners on a level playing field. They are driven by capitalism and money, they aren’t going to not do it for moral reasons.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#660

Post by valuearb »

ehllo wrote: post #569
valuearb wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple pays the full tax. It pays huge amounts of taxes in Germany.

... apple clearly evades tax in all markets in europe http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-3702_en.htm

Apple needs to keep it's international after tax profits out of the US or it will be forced to pay another 40%+ in taxes on them. So it puts them in Ireland, because Ireland gave it a great tax rate, less than 1%.

What should the tax rate be on the interest from billions in savings? Apple isn't' forcing Ireland to build roads or spend any government moneys to allow it to make Irish bank deposits. it's a completely legal arrangement for both Ireland and Apple.

It's crap like this that forced the UK out of the EU. Nothing the EU does is going to force Apple to move it's savings to Germany or France so they can impose high taxes on their interest. That cash will go to Asia first.

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