Why We Terminated Daily Stormer • Hacker News Board

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#651

Post by adnam » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 7:55 AM UTC

Akujin wrote: post #577

PeanutCurry wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how that's a particularly useful view of what the statistics reflect, especially since I clarified in the same post you quoted that I was speaking with regard to nazism in the modern context. Further, it wasn't simply nazis in the abstract that killed those few million people, it was nazi controlled Germany. It seems dishonest to ignore that aspect of the history because you gloss over all of the politica…

A Nazi is way more dangerous than an Al Qaeda member and yet we would have zero problem taking down a terrorist website because it can radicalize people. Radicalization of people is quite literally spread like a disease. The internet has allowed this disease a means of spreading unlike ever before in the history of man. Being tolerant of such communities that call for the violent overthrow of the government, institut…

Islamist terrorism is much more prevalent than far-right terrorism http://henryjacksonsociety.org/2017/03/05/islamist-terrorism...

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#652

Post by adekok » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 7:57 AM UTC

matttproud wrote: post #591

Akujin wrote: post #573

We take down Al Qaeda terrorist websites all the time because they can be used to radicalize people. Nazis are no different. They are calling for the systematic violent overthrow of the US government and for the extermination of many millions of so called undesirables. This is a terrorist threat. I take this threat very seriously as do many people in the Jewish, Hispanic, and African American community. There are lit…

^^^ The parent comment hits the ball out of the park. The commentary on past posts on HN and elsewhere floors me. It seems one or two things are prevalent: 1. Folks will gladly loan the hangman the rope that he will use to hang you, your family, and your neighbors — all because of "purity of belief" in free speech. Sorry, hate to break it to you, but these illiberal forces are a clear and present danger to this comfo…

> As someone who cherishes the rule of law over the rule of man, not aiding and these illiberal parties is the minimum.

That's good. But the rule of law should apply over "not aiding" those people.

In the private sector, there have been a number of cases where companies (a) don't apply their ToS to people they agree with, and (b) over-apply their ToS to people they disagree with.

See Vidcon && Sargon for the most recent example.

i.e. When given the choice, the groups that value "inclusiveness" and "tolerance" and "due process" violate all of that...

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#653

Post by nemothekid » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 7:58 AM UTC

chvid wrote: post #599

matttproud wrote: post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

^^^ The parent comment hits the ball out of the park. The commentary on past posts on HN and elsewhere floors me. It seems one or two things are prevalent: 1. Folks will gladly loan the hangman the rope that he will use to hang you, your family, and your neighbors — all because of "purity of belief" in free speech. Sorry, hate to break it to you, but these illiberal forces are a clear and present danger to this comfo…

I don't have any sympathy for the Daily Stormer. I just don't see where this is stopping. What else needs to be taken down? /pol/? Who about Breitbart? Or maybe some 2nd WW Nazi propaganda? Or something from the US civil war? You guys seem to be ok with this very slippery slope being assessed by random private companies accountable to who knows. And then you have the nerve to call us who believes that limits of free…

>You guys seem to be ok with this very slippery slope being assessed by random private companies accountable to who knows.

To me its strange someone would consider closing down /pol/ a "slippery slope". I am amazed that someone would consider 4chan a moral compass for the type of things their admins should put up with. moot has closed down /pol/ for this very reason in the past with even less "political" awareness than the CEO of cloudflare.

4Chan is "free-speech" not through effort but through negligence & apathy. moot shut down /pol/ (aka /n/) before, twice, on a whim because he didn't like the content. It's not the first time it has devolved into nazi-fetishism. While 4chan has the reputation for being a seedy place, moot has taken stands and banned people and conversions from 4chan (for example most recently gamergate on /v/) for reasons that can be boiled down to that he didn't like it (mods of 4chan have done this as well, such as no Naruto on /a/). The current iteration of /pol/ has likely been allowed to live through negligence - moot is no longer involved with 4chan, and the new owner hiroyuki has been as absent as moot during his VC startup days. Simply put 4chan never had any moderator accountability (see Rule 9 of the internet).

In conclusion, the notion that this is a "slippery slope" is nonsense. "Free speech" on the internet never really existed, the current view points that exist only exist because their operators have never bothered to flex their muscles - and the reason they haven't has rarely been because of some moral high ground. At the end of the day there is plenty of "reasonable" content YouTube won't host for you, and that Facebook will kick you for. If you are concerned about being silenced by a corporate vendor, then choose your partners wisely. If none will support you - then self fund. Free Speech doesn't mean the NYT is obligated to print your content, only that the government wont stop circulation of your newspaper. If you can't acquire the resources to start your own print, then tough luck.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#654

Post by vixen99 » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 7:58 AM UTC

specialist wrote: post #448

kazagistar wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So much for believing in "due process".

His only mistake is explaining himself. If it were my call, every hate group's content would have inexplicable persistent problems. I'd use the Simple Sabotage Field Manual as my playbook.

And the hate group would be defined as such by whom?

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#655

Post by mozumder » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 7:59 AM UTC

illuminati1911 wrote: post #615

Akujin wrote: post #573

We take down Al Qaeda terrorist websites all the time because they can be used to radicalize people. Nazis are no different. They are calling for the systematic violent overthrow of the US government and for the extermination of many millions of so called undesirables. This is a terrorist threat. I take this threat very seriously as do many people in the Jewish, Hispanic, and African American community. There are lit…

The last sentence is the main reason why the world is so fucked up today. "Unless you agree with my radical leftist agenda you are a nazi/racist/ "-mentality and the complete unreasonability of the left is the reason why normal people are fed up with all this crap and are voting for Trump, Brexit etc. No matter how evil some group is (may they be pedophiles, satan worshippers, nazis, whatever...) silencing them and a…

It seems people have no idea that Nazis are actually extremely violent people. I'm not talking about your average racist, but people that identify with the Nazi party. Violence is central to their philosophy. If you actually met any modern-day Nazis, you would know this. It took me about two days of hanging out with Nazis before they literally tried to blow me up.

This isn't some free-speech issue where you debate politely and sip iced water and other frippery.. this is actual people killing other people. This is how the the real world actually operates, instead of libertarian-nerd theory world.

And you know Nazis would be extremely violent people because no rational person would self identify with that group, so already they're batshit insane, which means they're likely to be extremely violent. And sure enough, when hundreds of Nazis gathered this weekend in Charlottesville, you actually ended up with an event measured in terms of "death toll".

We have to treat these people like armed and dangerous criminals, like you would ISIS or any active shooter.

And we all need to understand that government limits speech in many, many ways, not just the "fire in the theatre" example, but with things like sedition and other criminal conspiracies to more mundane things like copyrights and libel.

People forget that we went to war against these people and used to kill Nazis wholesale less than 80 years ago, because the Nazi party went to war against America. Identifying with them means you've actually declared war against the US. Not sure how much clearer you could be in declaring yourself to be a violent and dangerous criminal than that.

Just ban them. Arrest their members. Don't be the socially inept libertarian nerd that thinks only in terms of theory without any real-world experience. It's perfectly fine to limit rights and freedoms in the real world. You can do it!

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#656

Post by tr352 » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 7:59 AM UTC

matt4077 wrote: post #584

genon wrote: post #324

Absolutely correct. He is also effectively saying that since he can and will remove sites he personally doesn't like, that he personally approves of every other site using Cloudflare. The excuse he uses for terminating TDS is an absolute crock; if TDS genuinely did falsely and sincerely claim that Cloudflare supports them, then Prince could and should have simply asked them to remove that claim. It's an outrage that…

> He is also effectively saying that since he can and will remove sites he personally doesn't like, that he personally approves of every other site using Cloudflare A -> B does not imply !B -> !A Example: if you eat an Apple, saying "hey, that's one good-looking Apple!", it does not require you to heretofore eat every good-looking Apple you come across.

> A -> B does not imply !B -> !A

A -> B does imply !B -> !A. The error in reasoning here seems to be that attitude towards a website is assumed to be a binary "like/not like" variable, while in reality one can also neither like nor dislike something.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#657

Post by mk89 » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 8:00 AM UTC

I would never shut down such websites. Not due to Freedom of speech, but because now they will hide better. Most of these people login with their Facebook accounts to post hateful comments etc. I mean, seriously, all it takes for any law enforcement is to keep these people under control and that's it and sue them if it's the case. On the other hand, now we risk to create more and more parallel societies and secret groups. I understand that a private company can decide to terminate any user's account just "because they can". Completely fine with that.

They could have played this card better I think.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#658

Post by adekok » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 8:00 AM UTC

contrast wrote: post #621

fennecfoxen wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They won't politely tolerate you. Deviants will be chastised, expelled/expatriated, jailed, or killed. If they have the power to? Yeah, in a heartbeat. But they're not the only ones, or the most powerful ones, just the most ostentatiously intolerant. > 1. Folks will gladly loan the hangman the rope that he will use to hang you, your family, and your neighbors — all because of "purity of belief" in free speech. If b…

A white supremacist killed someone at the weekend for protesting. If their free speech gives you supreme confidence , then you are simply wrong. The evidence is fresh. You will have free speech - as long as you only go to the right places, say the right things, wear the right clothes, have the right colour skin. Over time, supremacist movements reduce that free space in greater and greater amounts. This is what the e…

> A white supremacist killed someone at the weekend for protesting. If their free speech gives you supreme confidence, then you are simply wrong.

The GP said no such thing. He talked about speech, and you changed the subject to violence.

If the white supremacists limited themselves to speech, then yes... their free speech should be protected. And, it serves as an indicator that we truly have free speech.

The whole point of free speech is to give freedom to views you disagree with. The alternative is the Soviet Union / North Korea bullshit of "everyone has free speach, but only one viewpoint is allowed".

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#659

Post by willvarfar » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 8:01 AM UTC

chvid wrote: post #599

matttproud wrote: post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

^^^ The parent comment hits the ball out of the park. The commentary on past posts on HN and elsewhere floors me. It seems one or two things are prevalent: 1. Folks will gladly loan the hangman the rope that he will use to hang you, your family, and your neighbors — all because of "purity of belief" in free speech. Sorry, hate to break it to you, but these illiberal forces are a clear and present danger to this comfo…

I don't have any sympathy for the Daily Stormer. I just don't see where this is stopping. What else needs to be taken down? /pol/? Who about Breitbart? Or maybe some 2nd WW Nazi propaganda? Or something from the US civil war? You guys seem to be ok with this very slippery slope being assessed by random private companies accountable to who knows. And then you have the nerve to call us who believes that limits of free…

CloudFare served DailyStormer for years.

Then DailyStormer says CloudFare are secretly nazis.

Then CloudFare say "no we don't, goodbye".

If DailyStormer hadn't been so stupid, and had never claimed CloudFare was anything other than neutral, then they would still be served?

Stupid own goal DailyStormer.

The censorship and 'line' seems to be not what you say or incite against others, but what you say about CloudFare.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#660

Post by thedrbrian » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 8:03 AM UTC

Akujin wrote: post #573

We take down Al Qaeda terrorist websites all the time because they can be used to radicalize people. Nazis are no different. They are calling for the systematic violent overthrow of the US government and for the extermination of many millions of so called undesirables. This is a terrorist threat. I take this threat very seriously as do many people in the Jewish, Hispanic, and African American community. There are lit…

Do /pol/ actually sympathise with the Nazis or are they just trying and getting a rise out of people ?