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The Google memo isn’t sexist or anti-diversity, it’s science

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651–660 of 684 posts

Re: The Google memo isn’t sexist or anti-diversity, it’s science

#651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you equate a few studies with "clinical fact" shows you do not understand how science works. http://retractionwatch.com

The Big-5 aka OCEAN model (openness / conscientiousness / extroversion / agreeability / neuroticism) constitutes the most scientifically accepted framework for measuring personality. It is confirmed by decades of work and massive amounts of large-n survey research. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits One of the major giveaways that the Diversity VP at Google is incompetent came when she criticiz…

I insinuated no such thing. Bluster is an appropriate username for you.

Re: The Google memo isn’t sexist or anti-diversity, it’s science

#652
post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would truly be strange if genetic divergence over approximately 100,000 years (between these populations) ended up affecting a behavioral trait that has only been important for about 100 years in one of these populations. Well, it might not be strange if humans had the same generation time as insects. But for a species with generation time of 20 years, this is a very unlikely hypothesis IMO.

It could as well have diverged by accident. Sexual dimorphism in these kind of interest may not have any evolutional impact, but be affected by genes that were close to other genes that improve male fertility for example. The closer two genes are on a chromosome, the more likely they are to be selected together.

Your position is scientifically illiterate but I suppose it's worth pointing out why: It would require basically one gene to control these complex behavioral traits, which is implausible. Moreover, such a strong, population-specific, selective force on the human genome does not exist, which we know from population genomics studies. Therefore, what you are arguing here is factually wrong.

Re: The Google memo isn’t sexist or anti-diversity, it’s science

#653
post #337
post #36

What I find interesting about all this is how many people take personal offense from statistics. (and conclusions drawn from statistics) The author seems to put an effort into explaining statistical distribution and what it means and what not. He's explicit that statistical observations can't be used to judge particular individuals. Draws a graph of overlapping distributions to drive the point home even more. I'm not…

Do you really find that interesting though? Isn't that incredibly obvious? My biggest problem with all this is how the author gave absolutely no thought to how his female coworkers would be affected by this. These are REAL women who have to interact with him every day. They are not just statistics who are on average less likely to be good engineers than he is. They are supposed to be on the same team. I can't see how…

Yes, really. It's not obvious to me why would people jump to conclusions like that. For example if I wanted to take things personally from my perspective from that memo, I could also find several points that I can misinterpret and get annoyed about.

Perhaps some people are more likely to see themselves in general statements and fill the missing info with their speculation. It may be the same reason why some people are susceptible to horoscopes or fortune tellers, except that this would be more subtle.

Re: The Google memo isn’t sexist or anti-diversity, it’s science

#654
post #36

What I find interesting about all this is how many people take personal offense from statistics. (and conclusions drawn from statistics) The author seems to put an effort into explaining statistical distribution and what it means and what not. He's explicit that statistical observations can't be used to judge particular individuals. Draws a graph of overlapping distributions to drive the point home even more. I'm not…

The manifesto didn't stop at citing statistics.

Sure, but many reactions were directly related to statistical claims. I'm finding these interesting.

Re: The Google memo isn’t sexist or anti-diversity, it’s science

#655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it seems we disagree on what the core issue is. I don't think it is a matter of gender science. I think he's using research in gender science to push an ideology that he's attempting to form grounds in his attached research. I see it as a social issue primarily, with considerations that should include gender science, but not be based solely upon it. For reference to my thinking on the matter I'll confer to one o…

Let me ask you this - what ideology is he pushing? Damore's piece can be read as supporting one of two policies, depending on how you interpret it: 1. Adopt alternative approaches to increasing the number of women at Google. or 2. Leave things alone and don't try to interfere with the outcome of the standard hiring process. I think he argued more for (1), in which case his "ideology" would if anything be rather close…

To begin: He built his own categorization of political alliances based on moral outlooks that he named with a clear bias. (see page 2)

Here he tries to remove himself from the rankings but his rhetoric signifies a preference. The weight of the language on one side versus the other induces this effect. He produced this ranking without reference, except noting that these are his own observations at a single campus.

After displaying a chart of associative terms he goes on to implicate Google's bias as lying on the left of his custom political spectrum. Shortly thereafter, he decries Google's particular bias as being harmful. Harmful to nobody in particular, so an assumed ethereal everybody... or himself. In fact, he spends most of the rest of the paper decrying left-handed politics as he's defined them, and continues to define them. (Here his reference is to a WSJ editorial article, hosted offsite. Their editorial sections are generally known to be significantly right-leaning. It's full of conjecture without proofs in between notes about studies.)

I found this particular passage interesting:

>Communism promised to be both morally and economically superior to capitalism, but every attempt became morally corrupt and an economic failure. As it became clear that the working class of the liberal democracies wasn’t going to overthrow their “capitalist oppressors,” the Marxist intellectuals transitioned from class warfare to gender and race politics. The core oppressor-oppressed dynamics remained, but now the oppressor is the “white, straight, cis-gendered patriarchy.”

Now while it's a footnote, he's making severe assertions about history with no references at all.

He's also quite enthusiastically twisting the content of his sources to suit his needs. For instance, in the Scientific American article where he derives his "PC-Authoritarian" term to label Google the author of the SA article attributes that to people who declare biological differences as the source of group differences. Of course I have my suspicions he didn't use this term specifically so he could cry vindication once he was fired, but that's just me. The article in fact uses the term "PC-egalitarian"[0] (an apparent other end of the PC political spectrum) who debut programs for specific diverse groups of people to increase their inclusion in the larger community by a sort of 'hand-up'. He evades this point completely.

I could go further but it I'll try to boil down to my point, before I end up writing an essay myself.

He's pushing a hard-right ideology. One that evidenced itself by tangential ramblings about communism in the footnotes, linking to dubious blog and editorial sources (even if they were written by scientists, there are more opinion pieces than are warranted being[1]), and he's repeating (in more "smart" rhetoric than usual) far-right talking points.[2] Further, he wants to be allowed to use Google as a forum where he can say whatever he wants, and will probably cry "transgressors" if somebody tells him to stop being an asshole.

[0] "PC-Egalitarians tended to attribute a cultural basis for group differences, believed that differences in group power springs from societal injustices, and tended to support policies to prop up historically disadvantages groups. Therefore, the emotional response of this group to discriminating language appears to stem from an underlying motivation to achieve diversity through increased equality, and any deviation from equality is assumed to be caused by culture. Their beliefs lead to advocating for a more democratic governance."

[1] Majority right-wing news editorial sections, blogs that exist on scientific websites, and political studies that took place in Europe where the base level "conservatism" is probably closer to American centrism citing the conscientiousness of conservatives.

[2] Personally, it sounds like it came right out of the halls of "red pill/mens rights" forums. They will brigade an intellectual-sounding attempt at legitimacy once in a while by attempting to veil their ideas in a shroud of sloppy rhetoric and tertiary-source material.

The paper's primary focus seems to be removing the programs that were put in place to aid diversity by setting up programs for historically disadvantaged groups, and railing on the "left".

Just in case anybody was wondering: http://nymag.com/selectall/2017/08/who-is-james-damore-fired...

Re: The Google memo isn’t sexist or anti-diversity, it’s science

#657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notice how you're not actually agreeing or disagreeing with my assertion. You're simple trying to justify the postmodernist take on truth.

You haven't read a single text that falls under the banner of Postmodern. Please stop using the term. As the other commenter has noted, you need to historcise. Continental philosophers didn't just plop onto the scene buoyed by multimillion dollar marketing budgets; the epistemology issues they raised are real. Your ridiculous claims of Marxist thought, Feminist thought, etc. betray your ignorance. So yes, I disagree…

The giants of postmodernism, like Jacques Derrida and Jean-Paul Sartre, were fanatically Marxist before they became postmodernists. They themselves described their philosophies as evolutions of Marxism. Derrida for his part described his outlook as carrying on the spirit of Marxism.

The philosophy very openly calls for deconstruction of all existing values and power structures, and a radical rejection of what the modernist interpreted as reason.

I think you are deliberately downplaying this element of postmodernist philosophy and I don't think you're doing the discussion any favors by casting your opponents as bigots.

Re: The Google memo isn’t sexist or anti-diversity, it’s science

#658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You haven't read a single text that falls under the banner of Postmodern. Please stop using the term. As the other commenter has noted, you need to historcise. Continental philosophers didn't just plop onto the scene buoyed by multimillion dollar marketing budgets; the epistemology issues they raised are real. Your ridiculous claims of Marxist thought, Feminist thought, etc. betray your ignorance. So yes, I disagree…

The giants of postmodernism, like Jacques Derrida and Jean-Paul Sartre, were fanatically Marxist before they became postmodernists. They themselves described their philosophies as evolutions of Marxism. Derrida for his part described his outlook as carrying on the spirit of Marxism. The philosophy very openly calls for deconstruction of all existing values and power structures, and a radical rejection of what the mod…

I don't recall ever reading Derrida as a fervent Marxist. Sartre's somewhat predates postmodernist canon. Marx would be a bit of a grandfather in deconstruction. Hard not to move forward without acknowledging his presence[1].

> They themselves described their philosophies as evolutions of Marxism.

Citation needed certainly in the case of Derrida.

With that said, to have a peek at J's posts. Every single message is prefaced with the rubbish connection, and by suggesting that there is some lineage to Marx is giving the individual more credit than he is due. Doubly so that it is clear he has never read a Postmodern text.

Also, as I have been citing Foucualt, it might be worth noting that his view of power contrasted against Marx's.

To suggest that the toolbox of Postmodern thought is all Marxism and Feminist is absolutely ridiculous.

[1] In terms of critiquing capitalist thought alone it would be almost mandatory to explore Marxist thought. It would also seem that Derrida wasn't quite the Marxist cited. http://www.salon.com/2013/04/28/grappling_with_specters_of_m...

Re: The Google memo isn’t sexist or anti-diversity, it’s science

#659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have two equally qualified candidates but 90% of the time the male candidate is hired over the female candidate, and then you change your hiring practices to reduce that ratio to 50%, are you now discriminating against the male candidate? What if you literally reduce it to a coinflip?

That seems like a bit of a straw-man. The problem is that "equally qualified" is poorly defined. We all have biases (conscious and unconscious) - and we should be working to keep them in check and reduce bad discrimination (i.e. not based on "good" things like merit). I don't think anybody is arguing that they wouldn't want 50/50 hiring results given the repeated game of hiring between two hypothetically equally qual…

It is a hypothetical scenario but it illustrates the fundamental difference in perspectives:

In scenario (1) otherwise qualified female candidates are overlooked during the hiring process due to systemic biases in the industry. Programs are instituted to reduce these biases. This puts men at a disadvantage (relative to the status quo), but actually merely equalizes the playing field.

In scenario (2) there are not enough qualified female candidates. If that is the case, then any program which increases the hiring of female candidates will likely cause the hiring of sub-par candidates, causing all of the issues you describe.

I can understand why people would object to (2) but I don't really see a problem with (1). I also don't understand why people assume that these programs actually lead to the hiring of sub-par candidates? I would think that Google's hiring practices would filter out unqualified candidates regardless of gender.

Re: The Google memo isn’t sexist or anti-diversity, it’s science

#660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The giants of postmodernism, like Jacques Derrida and Jean-Paul Sartre, were fanatically Marxist before they became postmodernists. They themselves described their philosophies as evolutions of Marxism. Derrida for his part described his outlook as carrying on the spirit of Marxism. The philosophy very openly calls for deconstruction of all existing values and power structures, and a radical rejection of what the mod…

I don't recall ever reading Derrida as a fervent Marxist. Sartre's somewhat predates postmodernist canon. Marx would be a bit of a grandfather in deconstruction. Hard not to move forward without acknowledging his presence[1]. > They themselves described their philosophies as evolutions of Marxism. Citation needed certainly in the case of Derrida. With that said, to have a peek at J's posts. Every single message is pr…

In Spectres de Marx Derrida describes a political movement that gets back to the roots of Marxism (and away from the supposed bastardization of Marxism that Leninism/Stalinism represented), so to speak, with a new deconstructionist coalition that continues in the "spirit of Marxism". The book was a crystalization of views he had developed over the preceding decades, when he had done the most to develop postmodernism.

While postmodernism differs from Marxism in many ways, and while its progenitors were inspired by and attempted to build on top of Marxism to different degrees, it certainly comes from the same intellectual tradition of radicalism, and advocacy of overthrowing power structures, as Marxism, and was formulated mostly by intellectuals that accepted several of the basic suppositions of Marxism.

This shouldn't be surprising, considering how prevalent Marxism was among French intellectuals in the postwar period.

As for whether Marxism has any redeeming value, I'd argue that even if it did, the recklessness of its attacks on the capital owning class, in concepts such as surplus value, exclude it as a perspective worthy of being given that level of respect. Marxism crosses a line in human relations that is hard to come back from, and hard to build a humanistic society on top of.

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