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Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

paolino.me

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Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#641

Post by glad_duck »

tyg13 wrote: post #500
keiferski wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah most US companies have return policies of 30 days or more, no questions asked.

most large companies, maybe, but small-to-medium-sized businesses can and will tell you to take a hike. there are no consumer protections in the US regarding returns beyond the goodwill of the company

That's why they are dying (those who tell you to take a hike). Why would I buy from a small business without a possibility to return if I can buy from Amazon with guaranteed 30 days? It's your choice. Honestly, I bought enough stuff from small to medium companies and most of them allow returns. If not, it's my choice not to buy. Not everything should be a law, and laws are not free, somebody has to pay (just like for 30 day return). Guess who pays? Well, it's ... you.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#642

Post by inglor_cz »

rob74 wrote: post #165

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. And the cheap door has a price of its own: to some clients, “UG” reads as “not serious,” and they would rather deal with a GmbH. The structure built to let me in quietly marks me for using it. The 25,000 is there to make sure…

Most EU countries don't demand such huge initial capital from banal LLCs and they don't seem to have a significant problem with resulting liabilities.

I'd guess that the German economy may actually suffer more from dissuading young people to start LLCs.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#643

Post by leguminous »

throwaway-blaze wrote: post #545
sandcat_ wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not true. From mandatory refunds when selling online, to capped credit card fees, to longer warranties, the EU is clearly better for consumer rights. Some US businesses have realized that openly screwing your customers isn’t good business practice, but they’re somewhat of the exception I hear (and a lot of those companies offer the same policies, or better, in the EU, e.g. Costco) Apple is another good example…

And all of Apple's products are much more expensive in the EU. In Austria, a MacBook Air starts at EUR1199, and the same device starts at USD1099. At today's exchange rate, that European device costs USD1360, or nearly 20% more. We can argue about the consumer friendliness of the regulations in the EU but they also add demonstrably to the cost of tech products (and likely other categories).

[dead]

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#644

Post by glad_duck »

ahlCVA wrote: post #512
9dev wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly my point. In Germany I can order from the smallest of webshops without even reading their return policy, because I am guaranteed favourable terms by law.

This isn't without downsides though: As somebody with a niche technical hobby, it is hard for me to order from many suppliers because they understandably don't want to deal with consumer protection laws and thus exclude B2C transactions outright ("Verkauf nur an Gewerbetreibende"). I would be fine with waiving my right to returns but this is not possible on purpose, so my only options are to shop somewhere else (ofte…

B2B company in the US rarely sell to consumers either and their return policy is very different. Not necessary "no return", but only if damaged, not per spec etc. Since we don't have consumer protection laws here I guess it's based on different company structure and expected revenue. In your case it may also be VAT implications (similar problem here with sales tax).

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#645

Post by kjellsbells »

I'll state up front that I'm not German and have no experience of incorporating in Germany save for what my German friends tell me. Yet their complaints rhyme with OP's.

Assuming they are well-founded, what stops a market entrant promising to streamline all the paperwork? eg a LegalZoom- or Stripe-type of entity that for a flat fee of X will handle all the paperwork and filing for you using essentially pro-forma legal and tax paperwork. OP is paying $$$ (well, €€€) for law and tax firms to do sed s/xxx/TheirCo/g on a bunch of forms and papers, and check their passport photo. Isnt this an obvious opportunity for a market disruptor?

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#646

Post by fakedang »

petesergeant wrote: post #565
fakedang wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is still fine imo. My idea was not about skipping German corporate or personal taxes - it was about skipping German bureaucracy.

> it was about skipping German bureaucracy By creating a company that requires a special filing status to the German tax office?

Ouch, is that painful too? Damn.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#647

Post by kyleee »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #634
jobs_throwaway wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And in real life piercing the veil is extremely exceptional

It's so exceptional in the UK you can run a series of fraudulent businesses which are incorporated, "buy" services, don't pay for them, then declare themselves insolvent, rinse and repeat, and there's a fair chance you'll get away with it. It's called phoenixing. There are good few bans for it every year, but almost no convictions for fraud.

Not to mention all the fraud the Turkish barbers etc are up to

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#649

Post by scottyah »

tyg13 wrote: post #500
keiferski wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah most US companies have return policies of 30 days or more, no questions asked.

most large companies, maybe, but small-to-medium-sized businesses can and will tell you to take a hike. there are no consumer protections in the US regarding returns beyond the goodwill of the company

As it should be when you buy a product IMO. It only works out in high-trust societies and the business model is ruined by scammers. REI is a great example, some people would buy shoes, wear them out, then return them years later because the policy accepted it. It's obviously not a way to keep a company in business, but people just don't care because the reward for them is just too good to pass up.

There's a lot of overlap between protecting consumers and enabling scammers.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#650

Post by watwut »

logifail wrote: post #307
_fat_santa wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US system is built to support entrepreneurship while the EU system broadly is to support the consumer and employee. The US will never be able to match the EU's consumer and employee protections and the EU will never be able to match the US's ease of doing business, because to have one you have to fundamentally give in on the other. Depending on who you ask, one system is wildly better than the other, but at the e…

> The US system is built to support entrepreneurship while the EU system broadly is to support the consumer and employee I disagree: the EU system broadly is there to support _the incumbants_ "Regulatory capture" is the less kind way to put it.

US system seems to facilitate quick creation of monopolies and then keeps them in power long term. There is quick competition, winner takes it all and then it is it forever.
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