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Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

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Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#641

Post by dormento »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #498
somewhatgoated wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like others said that choice is not really given in this case. Also with the government option it wouldn’t mean that you can’t still use other methods - for example in brasil credit card or cash work just fine, PIX is just one (very convenient) option.

Do corner stores (small informal convenience stores) in Brasil usually accept PIX? I assume they all cash-only. Also: What is PIX uptake/penetration like in the countryside? China is shocking how fast that countryside wet/farmer's markets started accepting AliPay. Literally, you can buy a kilo of pumpkin (namguo) using nothing but your mobile phone with AliPay, and the old lady running the stand (in a wet market) pro…

(Brazilian here).

> Do corner stores (small informal convenience stores) in Brasil usually accept PIX? I assume they all cash-only.

Pretty much every single one I've always been to. From the smallest one-person street corner popup shop to the biggest shopping mall boutique and outlets, virtually everyone accepts PIX payments. Its just better - its one of those "you gotta use it to understand" things.

Anecdotally: I've even gave some cash to homeless people on occasion using PIX. This may seem weird, but in Brazil, you must have a bank account to be able to subscribe to any sort of government benefits, and since its free, pretty much everyone has an account and therefore can receive PIX payments. Its also safer, since you're not carrying cash with you, and even if you're somehow forced to transfer, there are ways to monitor and reverse transactions (so called MED).

https://www.bcb.gov.br/estabilidadefinanceira/pix-seguranca

Of course, there's been a few incidents over the years where some concerned citizens would not accept PIX payments because "the government will know what you're spending on" (in contrast to, say, credit card operators, where apparently the "right people" would know what you're spending on...).

There are some criticisms of the current system, which is fair, but most that I have heard are ideological in nature or some sort of foreign defaultism.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#642

Post by doctorpangloss »

throwawayaltepi wrote: post #625

(throwaway alt because main is traceable) epi acquired idealo (in the Netherlands, and payconiq in Belgium/Luxembourg), slapped the wero brand on it, and announced proudly they have x million customers. wero as a brand has close to 0 market recognition, and with idealo and payconiq they butchered some of the systems (in the name of consolidation) so badly that incidents have become the norm (and security wise ...yike…

> epi is absolutely not the solution, imho.

pray tell, why? why is X not a solution and Stripe is haha

won't someone please think of Stripe common holders!

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#643

Post by dormento »

SomeUserName432 wrote: post #219
cfontes wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PIX from Brazil is even better, to be honest. But this is a big improvement over online CC payment. I lived in the NL and Brazil, so I can compare the two, and while iDEAL is pretty good, PIX is easier to understand, explain, and deal with. PIX has more variants, you can use it for recurrent payment, split payments, financing, cashout and almost all things a CC can do nowadays. I would say Tikkie is almost as good an…

> PIX from Brazil is even better, to be honest. You lack the inherent fraud, bankruptcy and other malicious actor protection that Visa/Mastercard provides. Bought something online and didn't receive your product? With PIX you're SOL, with Visa/Mastercard you get a chargeback.

False. There are mechanisms to undo PIX transactions. One such mechanism is the MED (official tool by the Central Bank). It can be used to help victims of scams, fraud and operating failures on the part of institutions so they can recover the cash).

https://www.bcb.gov.br/estabilidadefinanceira/pix-seguranca

There's also the different insurance plans offered by mostly all banks and payment-adjacent businesses.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#644

Post by carlosjobim »

grey-area wrote: post #595
ffritz wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The payer couldn't care less about how much the store pays for the transaction. He or she just wants to tap with their phone, and the default here are Visa/MC cards. In addition to the transaction price not being an argument for the payer, Wero also afaik does not have as much consumer protection as (certainly some) credit cards offer. I also bet the average person doesn't understand or care about the whole political…

The merchant could offer a discount for using it. I agree this could be a difficult battle and we effectively need some alternative to existing card issuers if they are to be displaced. Current contactless payments are easy, secure and allow disputes etc.

"Hey buddy, I give you a tiny tiny discount if you pay without fraud protection..."

I mean, some places do that. But for the consumer there is no advantage. It's probably fine at cafés, restaurants and such. But why would you as a consumer want it for any more important purchase? As you mention.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#645

Post by dormento »

SomeUserName432 wrote: post #247
functionmouse wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but it's a statistically negative sum game for the customer. Visa wouldn't offer such a service if they weren't winning out in the long run, collecting rent on every one of your purchases.

I am sure they gain something from it. My Brazillian bank charges me 600% yearly interest on credit card purchases. However, the cost of a lawsuit can quickly offset the costs of a CC. Depending on the state, there may not be a maximum cap on expenses, making lawsuits incredibly expensive. (Whereas having paid by card you could ask for a chargeback instead of needing to sue) It's also a very time consuming ordeal hav…

Am I mistaken or hasn't that been capped to 100% for a while?

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#646

Post by simonask »

swed420 wrote: post #61
simonask wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who cares at this point. Nothing has ever managed to unite Europeans as effectively as the orange man’s unrelenting torrent of temper tantrums over the past year and a half. Americans, we know some of you aren’t crazy. Can’t wait for the grown-ups to be in charge again, but in the mean time we’ll be moving on.

> Who cares at this point. Nothing has ever managed to unite Europeans as effectively as the orange man’s unrelenting torrent of temper tantrums over the past year and a half. > Americans, we know some of you aren’t crazy. Can’t wait for the grown-ups to be in charge again, but in the mean time we’ll be moving on. Assuming by "grown-ups" you mean Team Blue, then you'll be disappointed, because they manufactured conse…

> Assuming by "grown-ups" you mean Team Blue

I am deeply, profoundly, emphatically uninterested in your "teams". Your local news are not relevant to us. What the rest of the world sees is US foreign policy, and the mainstream sentiment in every other Western nation right now is one of second-hand embarrassment.

Also the ethnic cleansing does not look great.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#647

Post by 8note »

swed420 wrote: post #274
moparts wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about sanders, mamdani, aoc? Or are they just fringe candidates and don’t count? For every AOC there are a dozen Schumers I guess. But I disagree with your thesis because there are factions of ethical capitalists in the democratic party that have never existed in the modern Republican Party.

As a former Sanders supporter, it became clear that even though Bernie was likely acting in good faith, the establishment used all of their levers politically and in capital-controlled media to limit him to the role of controlled opposition. Emphasis on "controlled." > ethical capitalists That is not a coherent concept, especially in late stage capitalism.

he's not actually a member of the party.

They let him run in their party primaries, rather than him being a democrat.

with that context its more sensible that the party brass wasnt particularly pro-bernie. they did their job by letting him run at all

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#648

Post by chpatrick »

Aachen wrote: post #566
chpatrick wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I get sent a fake (or no) product by someone halfway around the world there's absolutely no way I'm getting my money back in small claims court.

Then use a service that offers escrow. I don't need my groceries to use insurance for the eventuality that the store goes belly-up in the 2 days until I can check that the products arrived in good order Base payment products should just do payment at operating margins rivaling a non-profit. It's public infrastructure

I'm quite happy with the status quo that I don't need to negotiate escrow with every random online service or store.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#649

Post by dormento »

tremon wrote: post #545
SomeUserName432 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> PIX from Brazil is even better, to be honest. You lack the inherent fraud, bankruptcy and other malicious actor protection that Visa/Mastercard provides. Bought something online and didn't receive your product? With PIX you're SOL, with Visa/Mastercard you get a chargeback.

Visa/Mastercard provides that because the US is a very untrustworthy country. I don't know the situation in Brazil, but here in Europe small claims court just works fine. I think it's pretty dysfunctional to have to rely on private companies for adequate legal protection.

(Brazilian here)

It works (passably) well here as well. However there's widespread lack of basic civic awareness which makes it harder for people to even know they could be settling such things on small claims court.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#650

Post by volkl48 »

Balooga wrote: post #463
SoftTalker wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only places I've found that refuse AMEX are very small mom and pop operations. And of those, many don't accept cards of any type: cash only.

Costco? [Edit] -- And I've frequented several independent coffee shops that are cashless.

Costco doesn't even accept Mastercard (credit cards), so they're kind of a unique case here where they intentionally choose to only accept one particular type of credit cards.
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