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Iran launched unsuccessful attack on UK's Diego Garcia

bbc.com

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Re: Iran launched unsuccessful attack on UK's Diego Garcia

#641

Post by donkeybeer »

DoctorOetker wrote: post #638
donkeybeer wrote: post #635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't understand your argument? Yes, you seem to be having some issue with your glasses or monitor today, so I will just write it again to make it clearer. Israel is the only country in this conflict who has and is engaging in Lebensraum. I think your problem with your monitor might cover a large swath of the screen so it is beneficial for me to repeat the key text a few more times, so that it has a better chance…

It's Martin van Creveld, an Israeli military theorist and military historian. To my knowledge European nations have never threatened his country, if you mean the modern state of Israel. If you refer to the holocaust during WW2, then yes multiple European nations were collaborators and participated in the holocaust. If you refer to earlier events, then also yes, there is a long history of persecution and Diaspora. As…

No, you first tell me. Why shouldn't Europe want to completely eliminate and contain Israel when Israeli government and Israeli agents say deranged things like this. Iran hasn't said they want to nuke every single European country. An Israeli did. Israel is engaging in Lebensraum. You accused Iran of Lebensraun. Iran never did Lebensraum. Israel does. You accuse Iran of threatening Europe with nukes. Iran never threatened Europe with nukes. Israel has threatened Europe with nukes. It is very clear who Europeans should neutralize.

Re: Iran launched unsuccessful attack on UK's Diego Garcia

#642

Post by dlubarov »

donkeybeer wrote: post #637
dlubarov wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Illegal nukes What would be illegal about them? Israel never agreed to the NPT. > Nobody is expecting them to divulge any intelligence about its nuclear weapon systems. Even if Israel could trust a group of foreign auditors not to leak any military secrets, what information would you hope to gain from the exercise? Confirmation that Israel does have nuclear weapons, which we already know in practice anyway? > you'd…

Why not. If we take words as violence, how about the dreams of violent annexation to achieve the so called Greater Israel. Or statements by Israeli's of threatening to nuke Rome and the entirety of Europe. I have very little trust in Israel or Iran, both are crappy countries high on fumes of religion and nationalism and constantly belligerents. Though funnily this war was started by Israel and America unprovoked whil…

> statements by Israeli's of threatening to nuke Rome and the entirety of Europe

I take it you’re quoting some random individual? Certainly no Israeli leaders said anything of the sort. The Iranian regime’s leaders on the other hand are quite explicit about their ambitions of destroying the US and Israel.

> this war was started by Israel and America unprovoked

Israel has been attacked with over a hundred thousand Iranian rockets and drones in recent times. If that isn’t a provocation, what is? How many Iranian rockets do you expect Israel to tolerate before finally responding?

Re: Iran launched unsuccessful attack on UK's Diego Garcia

#643

Post by kombookcha »

jacquesm wrote: post #636
kombookcha wrote: post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is the elephant in the roomt - in terms of quantifiable goals, Iran is winning this thing. I think they're going to want to punish the US and Israel to an extent where they will be reluctant to feel this particular sting again, and they want to assert their ability to control the strait. And it's working! They're clearly demonstrating that the US cannot simply decide when this is over and dictate terms,…

Not without 100K coffins. And that doesn't really sell all that well in the US.

Exactly. The price to actually do this is simply not one the US is willing to pay.

Re: Iran launched unsuccessful attack on UK's Diego Garcia

#644

Post by donkeybeer »

dlubarov wrote: post #642
donkeybeer wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not. If we take words as violence, how about the dreams of violent annexation to achieve the so called Greater Israel. Or statements by Israeli's of threatening to nuke Rome and the entirety of Europe. I have very little trust in Israel or Iran, both are crappy countries high on fumes of religion and nationalism and constantly belligerents. Though funnily this war was started by Israel and America unprovoked whil…

> statements by Israeli's of threatening to nuke Rome and the entirety of Europe I take it you’re quoting some random individual? Certainly no Israeli leaders said anything of the sort. The Iranian regime’s leaders on the other hand are quite explicit about their ambitions of destroying the US and Israel. > this war was started by Israel and America unprovoked Israel has been attacked with over a hundred thousand Ira…

Greater Israel expansionism is something Israeli leaders including Bibi constantly say. Israel wants Lebensraum. If that's not a statement by thr government, what is?

Are you sure about the timing, who started shooting who first?

Re: Iran launched unsuccessful attack on UK's Diego Garcia

#645

Post by donkeybeer »

dlubarov wrote: post #642
donkeybeer wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not. If we take words as violence, how about the dreams of violent annexation to achieve the so called Greater Israel. Or statements by Israeli's of threatening to nuke Rome and the entirety of Europe. I have very little trust in Israel or Iran, both are crappy countries high on fumes of religion and nationalism and constantly belligerents. Though funnily this war was started by Israel and America unprovoked whil…

> statements by Israeli's of threatening to nuke Rome and the entirety of Europe I take it you’re quoting some random individual? Certainly no Israeli leaders said anything of the sort. The Iranian regime’s leaders on the other hand are quite explicit about their ambitions of destroying the US and Israel. > this war was started by Israel and America unprovoked Israel has been attacked with over a hundred thousand Ira…

It may be random, but I didn't hear any Iranian saying they want to nuke the entire Europe if they feel threatened. I can already tell who I feel more threatened by. Even if we assume the Iranian govt truly means that, its still countries that have bonbed, hurt and destroyed Iran, and this begins far before the Islamic republic itself such as toppling Irans just and honorably elected government to install a dictatorial puppet monarch. Whereas that Israeli is threatening the entirety of Europe who never hurt Israel and even against all common sense and justice and fairness have been giving billions of euros to the Israeli entity, and this is how the ingrates respond. Being neither Israeli nor Iranian and not having my brain clouded by the stupidities of religion, nationalism or racialism there is a certain clarity of mind that arises in these matters.

Re: Iran launched unsuccessful attack on UK's Diego Garcia

#646

Post by DoctorOetker »

donkeybeer wrote: post #641
DoctorOetker wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's Martin van Creveld, an Israeli military theorist and military historian. To my knowledge European nations have never threatened his country, if you mean the modern state of Israel. If you refer to the holocaust during WW2, then yes multiple European nations were collaborators and participated in the holocaust. If you refer to earlier events, then also yes, there is a long history of persecution and Diaspora. As…

No, you first tell me. Why shouldn't Europe want to completely eliminate and contain Israel when Israeli government and Israeli agents say deranged things like this. Iran hasn't said they want to nuke every single European country. An Israeli did. Israel is engaging in Lebensraum. You accused Iran of Lebensraun. Iran never did Lebensraum. Israel does. You accuse Iran of threatening Europe with nukes. Iran never threa…

A historian is not the government?

If European countries had to justify every utterance by European historians they'd be busy for a long time...

You just keep ignoring how non-proliferation works, if you find evidence that Israel is approaching nuclear weapons capabilities, approaching mature ICBM capabilities, and if you have evidence that they are not quite there yet, then YES nuclear powers should collaborate on neutralizing the threat. There is disagreement if we are or are not too late on North Korea, hence why many oppose attempting to disarm it. But in the case of Iran it's not too late yet.

All the nuclear superpowers essentially developed their capabilities in sufficient stealth to attain those powers.

This is basic real politik.

Re: Iran launched unsuccessful attack on UK's Diego Garcia

#647

Post by dlubarov »

donkeybeer wrote: post #644
dlubarov wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> statements by Israeli's of threatening to nuke Rome and the entirety of Europe I take it you’re quoting some random individual? Certainly no Israeli leaders said anything of the sort. The Iranian regime’s leaders on the other hand are quite explicit about their ambitions of destroying the US and Israel. > this war was started by Israel and America unprovoked Israel has been attacked with over a hundred thousand Ira…

Greater Israel expansionism is something Israeli leaders including Bibi constantly say. Israel wants Lebensraum. If that's not a statement by thr government, what is? Are you sure about the timing, who started shooting who first?

Have you talked to an actual Israeli before? They just want to not suffer constant rocket attacks. If Hezbollah stopped attacking, there would be ~zero interest in any sort of military action in Lebanon.

Re: Iran launched unsuccessful attack on UK's Diego Garcia

#648

Post by donkeybeer »

DoctorOetker wrote: post #646
donkeybeer wrote: post #641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you first tell me. Why shouldn't Europe want to completely eliminate and contain Israel when Israeli government and Israeli agents say deranged things like this. Iran hasn't said they want to nuke every single European country. An Israeli did. Israel is engaging in Lebensraum. You accused Iran of Lebensraun. Iran never did Lebensraum. Israel does. You accuse Iran of threatening Europe with nukes. Iran never threa…

A historian is not the government? If European countries had to justify every utterance by European historians they'd be busy for a long time... You just keep ignoring how non-proliferation works, if you find evidence that Israel is approaching nuclear weapons capabilities, approaching mature ICBM capabilities, and if you have evidence that they are not quite there yet, then YES nuclear powers should collaborate on n…

As I have stated elsewhere I find Iran and Israel not particularly better than either, and Israel worse in terms of psychotic unprovoked violence to others and things which the other parties they attacked have never done to Israel (poisoning other countries crops via plane!!). In that light, I will be frank, I don't mind Iran getting nukes. If Iran getting nukes puts a balance in the power differential and silences Israel's belligerence that would be a great achievement.

Re: Iran launched unsuccessful attack on UK's Diego Garcia

#649

Post by donkeybeer »

dlubarov wrote: post #647
donkeybeer wrote: post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greater Israel expansionism is something Israeli leaders including Bibi constantly say. Israel wants Lebensraum. If that's not a statement by thr government, what is? Are you sure about the timing, who started shooting who first?

Have you talked to an actual Israeli before? They just want to not suffer constant rocket attacks. If Hezbollah stopped attacking, there would be ~zero interest in any sort of military action in Lebanon.

Israeli's are people like anyone else. However they are a peoples who are heavily propagandized to be fearful and hateful of everything since birth by their government, a peoples who have in my view become somewhat pathological as a reaction to the Holocaust. It is not wholly their fault. There are good people and bad people like in any country or group. But what I have seen of them has been more than enough for me, I have seen them laugh about throwing rocks and launching rockets at a peaceful Palestinian settlement for example. What do you say of that? Is that an example of they will stop violence if they are left alone?

I am not a big fan of basically any country in that region, Israel while better in some respects eg lgbtq is also more paranoid and psychotic in other aspects.

Re: Iran launched unsuccessful attack on UK's Diego Garcia

#650

Post by dlubarov »

donkeybeer wrote: post #649
dlubarov wrote: post #647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you talked to an actual Israeli before? They just want to not suffer constant rocket attacks. If Hezbollah stopped attacking, there would be ~zero interest in any sort of military action in Lebanon.

Israeli's are people like anyone else. However they are a peoples who are heavily propagandized to be fearful and hateful of everything since birth by their government, a peoples who have in my view become somewhat pathological as a reaction to the Holocaust. It is not wholly their fault. There are good people and bad people like in any country or group. But what I have seen of them has been more than enough for me,…

There's no need for anyone to "propagandize" Israelis into fearing attacks; they personally experience enemy attacks all the time. So much so that a lot of Israelis are just sleeping in bomb shelters at this point, so they don't have to jump out of bed and run whenever there's yet another nighttime attack.
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